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A Bit About Bits Part 3

11K views 127 replies 14 participants last post by  bsms 
#1 ·
#2 ·
Kuddos on a very excellent video! Shank and purchase ratio, as it relates to signal time is very well explained, as are mouth piece design.
I now also know the explanation of why a horse that learns to work with a quiet and relaxed mouth,learning to carry that bit, without having that mouth forced shut by various cavassons does not foam.
I always worked my horses towards that goal in mind, showing western, but never had a good explanation for those that claimed a foamy mouth shows a horse accepting a bit!
 
#18 ·
I guess you would have to define wasting your time....you posted a link to a video, which I have chosen not to click on, does that mean you have wasted your time?

You maybe analytical, but being part of a forum is far more than just a numbers game, I'm not sure if I am impressed or *not sure of what word I want here....so I'm leaving it hanging* that you have analysed your own participation in the forum to such a degree....but numbers are only part of it.

A forum is a community, sharing all sorts of things, knowledge is of course an important part of that, but people often are looking for specific answers to their questions, now yes the answers maybe in the archives, the subject has been covered before, but they want to feel it is personal to them, so they ask again...that is the way of forums.

As TXhorseman rightly says

When I feel discouraged, I try to remind myself that my real desire is to share what I have learned in the hope that even a few may benefit from my efforts.
That is what all of us do, my mission is simple, to be a poster child for not buying a horse that is half broke and bolshy, when you do not have the skill level to deal with it. I leave my message, and move on, if I can save someone from spending a month in hospital getting fixed, then great, it worked, but I can't make them listen or respond.

So, I can't tell if you are wasting your time, you will have to ask yourself what is it you want to 'get' from sharing this, I guess if it is responses from here then yes I guess you are. I read that it is a 60 minute video, that is a bunch of time to ask of a person.
 
#4 ·
No, you are not wasting your time. A 60 minute video is a bit intimidating to watch. We have some Internet problems at peak demand, so I downloaded it overnight to watch this morning.

The three videos you have put together on bits are vastly better than anything else I've seen. It is much better than any book I have on the subject.

The only problem may be that many people just want "a bit to do X". They want to skip training, and they want to skip spending 2 hours on 3 videos that will tell them what they need to know to make an intelligent decision!

Also - I've noticed English riders like to write about riding, and western riders...well, mostly get on and ride. I've got a couple shelves of books on English riding, but only a couple of OK books on western riding. I'm a fan of western riding, but all the truly good books on riding I own are very English in approach.

I know I'm going to post your videos in response to people's questions in the future, but I don't know how many will actually watch and learn. I have tried to simplify it down to "Snaffles pull back & curb bits rotate" - but even THAT seems to be more than a lot of folks want to hear. I wish I could get a dollar for every thread asking for "a good bit to collect my horse's head". I could quit work and buy me a fancy horse.

:cheers:
 
#6 ·
I tend to think of Daniel's threads as raisins in the muffin, although I sometimes pull them off subject without meaning to do so. Given how few people study bits or put in any thought to how or why they work (or not), I'm glad to see a thoughtful and detailed explanation.
 
#10 ·
I asked for feedback and I thank you for yours. However, being analytical, I went to the facts. As a contributor, I have given out about 700 likes. 700 times, I read a thread and agree with another's post so I contribute by giving it a "like". My stamp of approval and a "positive reinforcement, if you will. Of the 344 times I took the time to comment, about twenty of so are "links to my website and shameless self promotion". So, about 320 times I read posts and spent time answering them, often with several paragraphs, not just a sentence or two.
So, you are factually VERY off on your premise. Not to mention, this site doesn't allow " links to your website". There is precisely ONE link to my website and it resides solely in my signature. ALL other links are to thoughtful, experienced, and FREE information there for the taking.
As a poster, I admit that I have grown weary of answering the SAME TEN questions over and over again. Quite frankly, there is not a bit question in the archives of this forum that the poster would have no need to ask if they spent 30 minutes on my, again, FREE videos, all of which have links back to horseforum.com
So, from my point of view, over a thousand times, I have contributed to various posts on this forum alone. About 20 times I have asked a question of my own. That question has been the same, "How did you like this FREE information?"
That hardly seems out of line, to me at least...
 
#9 ·
Hi, Daniel. I noticed your name and this thread. I have watched a good portion of the video, but I wanted to watch and study all three of your videos before responding. I have some ideas I'd like to run by you, but I wanted to see if you've already covered them. They include the affects of applying the reins in various directions as well as the argument presented by General William H. Carter in his book "The U.S. Cavalry Horse" (first published in 1895) for the traditional two-to-one ratio.

I appreciate your effort in trying to understand and explain some of the innumerable variations in bits, how they operate, and some of the variables that affect their use. I have put some effort into trying to understand the principals associated with various designs. I have been working on several charts to illustrate various effects of design and use. Manufacturers and sellers of bits seldom provide much detailed physics behind the bits they promote. The few texts I've found trying to explain bits and their applications all appear quite limited in their own ways. I would love to find a more definitive text.

I often get the impression that bits are to many horsemen what lures are to many fishermen. They hear anecdotes about certain bits, have friends that use them, or see them used by people they consider good riders and buy them in hopes that they will solve whatever problem they are having with their horses. Such people often don't want to bother trying to comprehend the theories behind the design and use of different bits. Some buy bits simply because they like the looks of them.

Others may be perfectly happy with what they are currently using and have little interest in understanding how other bits work. Still others may have become overwhelmed by the many variables that can be used as arguments against different theories

Then, there are people like many students of various topics who simply try to absorb what they hear but feel they can form no good response.

I sometimes get discouraged by how little response I get after all the work I put into designing my web sites. Then there are the limited sales of the books which took me years to write. But I hear this is the same for many authors and publishers of books I have purchased and appreciated. When I feel discouraged, I try to remind myself that my real desire is to share what I have learned in the hope that even a few may benefit from my efforts.
 
#11 ·
My remarks were aimed at your apparent disappointment at the lack of response to your links to multiple videos from your training website. If you engage in actual discussions with members however repetitive they can become , you will have more engahing responses from reAders of your posts, which DO have great videos to offer..
 
#13 ·
I have contributed here over 1000 times. Less than 2% of the time have I asked for anything in return, and that boils down to a mere click of a mouse. A thought or two on what you liked or didn't would be a great bonus, and is always appreciated.

Thus far, I don't think I have wasted anyone's time. The lack of response, however has me seriously questioning if I am wasting mine...
 
#14 ·
I have not been able to cajole my painfully slow internet to allow me to watch all of the video yet, but I did appreciate the section talking about mouth suction and how a bit should work.

I have been seeing an article about some current research by Dr Cook claiming bits are the cause of death in racehorses making the rounds on facebook. There is also another one talking up the wonders of bitless going around, too. While I read both with a grain of salt seeing as the person producing them just happens to sell a bitless bridle (and I wasn't going to pay to access the entire research article), it did make me pause to think about the physiology involved.


Look forward to seeing the rest of your video, if in smaller than ideal increments.
 
#15 · (Edited)
Other researchers have looked at it and concluded bits do not interfere with breathing. Unfortunately, I didn't bookmark the study...

Almost all the studies I've been able to find using radiographs to SEE what goes on inside the mouth have been done with dressage horses and dressage bits. Almost all of them have involved snaffles only.

This one, from "Bitting: The Inside Story" - USDF Connection Dec 2005, may have a little application to western riding:



It at least makes clear the role the tongue has in relieving pressure on the bars. A lot of folks assume "tongue relief" makes a bit gentler. The US Cavalry considered a bit with tongue relief to be more severe, since any pressure not sustained by the tongue is transferred instead to the bars.

This screenshot has one of the very few pictures I've found of a curb bit inside the mouth (click on it to enlarge):



The article it was in has the best short discussion of bits I've found, although I think he gets a few things wrong:

http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/aaepfocus/2006/bennett1.pdf

I honestly don't know how they get a curb bit with straight sides to stay aligned when the horse's head is not vertical. With my bits, the weight of the reins always causes the end of the shank to rotate to its lowest possible spot. Assuming my horse carries its head at a 45 deg angle, that means a 45 deg bend in the sides results in the "neutral" position involving no rotation. If I use a straight shank bit, when my horse's head is at 45 deg, the weight of the reins will rotate the bit 45 degrees - which also tightens the curb strap and removes all of the "signal". Mia had the curb strap tighten all by itself in this picture, which is what taught me just how freely a curb bit can rotate:



If you click on it to enlarge it, I think this one shows that the curb has rotated enough to tighten the curb strap even though the reins are not completely straight:



I ride Bandit in a snaffle right now. I eventually want to transition him to a curb because I think a curb gives the option for gentler communication than a snaffle does. Used right, it is potentially gentler than a sidepull halter - IF you can get the horse responsive during the "signal" phase. The signal phase allows for precise communication without applying pressure...but Bandit is probably 6-12 months away from being ready for the transition.

I transitioned Mia to a curb bit for a very different reason - and it worked very well with her. But she was probably a "One Percent" kind of horse, and Bandit is more of a "99-percent" kind.
 
#22 ·
Other researchers have looked at it and concluded bits do not interfere with breathing. Unfortunately, I didn't bookmark the study...
horses can only breath through their nostrils. Bits can't interfere with breathing.
Almost all the studies I've been able to find using radiographs to SEE what goes on inside the mouth have been done with dressage horses and dressage bits. Almost all of them have involved snaffles only.

This one, from "Bitting: The Inside Story" - USDF Connection Dec 2005, may have a little application to western riding:



It at least makes clear the role the tongue has in relieving pressure on the bars. A lot of folks assume "tongue relief" makes a bit gentler. The US Cavalry considered a bit with tongue relief to be more severe, since any pressure not sustained by the tongue is transferred instead to the bars.

This screenshot has one of the very few pictures I've found of a curb bit inside the mouth (click on it to enlarge):



The article it was in has the best short discussion of bits I've found, although I think he gets a few things wrong:

http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/aaepfocus/2006/bennett1.pdf

I honestly don't know how they get a curb bit with straight sides to stay aligned when the horse's head is not vertical. With my bits, the weight of the reins always causes the end of the shank to rotate to its lowest possible spot. Assuming my horse carries its head at a 45 deg angle, that means a 45 deg bend in the sides results in the "neutral" position involving no rotation. If I use a straight shank bit, when my horse's head is at 45 deg, the weight of the reins will rotate the bit 45 degrees - which also tightens the curb strap and removes all of the "signal". Mia had the curb strap tighten all by itself in this picture, which is what taught me just how freely a curb bit can rotate:
at the end of the day, a horse that has learned to yield to the bit will be looking for that "neutral" place. So, it a bit is engaging on its own and staying that way, she is telling you she is still more motivated to do her own thing than softly obey the bit. You simply still have more work to do.


If you click on it to enlarge it, I think this one shows that the curb has rotated enough to tighten the curb strap even though the reins are not completely straight:



I ride Bandit in a snaffle right now. I eventually want to transition him to a curb because I think a curb gives the option for gentler communication than a snaffle does. Used right, it is potentially gentler than a sidepull halter - IF you can get the horse responsive during the "signal" phase. The signal phase allows for precise communication without applying pressure...but Bandit is probably 6-12 months away from being ready for the transition.

I transitioned Mia to a curb bit for a very different reason - and it worked very well with her. But she was probably a "One Percent" kind of horse, and Bandit is more of a "99-percent" kind.
Great post!
 
#19 ·
Didnt make it very far into the video yet.. But I'd like to discuss a couple things already.

First off, with the narrow ports that arent very tall (like a correction bit is what I'm gonna assume you're talking about) there is potential for the tongue to get pinched up in there and essentially grabbed by the bit. Those ports actually arent the greatest from my understanding. They dont have enough room for any tongue relief and still act on the tongue and bars and lips. Some food for thought there.

Now, the whole "bits are only as harsh as the hands" i only agree with this for some bits. Its not a general statement thats good for all bits. I like to use that statement when people are freaking out over a pretty regular curb bit that they are too afraid to use to just pass it off as scary and aggressive.
Truth is, there are lots of bits out there that not even soft hands should be using. Thin twisted wire, wonky combo gag bits that basically are a vice on a horses face, bike chain... I could go on for a while on this. Instead of generalizing that statement, I'd rather point at a bit (for example a mona lisa) and say its not harsh in experienced hands and in a horse that is trained to a high enoigh level to understand the type communication this bit exhibits.

My two cents for now.
 
#23 ·
Didnt make it very far into the video yet.. But I'd like to discuss a couple things already.

First off, with the narrow ports that arent very tall (like a correction bit is what I'm gonna assume you're talking about) there is potential for the tongue to get pinched up in there and essentially grabbed by the bit. Those ports actually arent the greatest from my understanding. They dont have enough room for any tongue relief and still act on the tongue and bars and lips. Some food for thought there.
i describe the point you are trying to make here as "Paralysis by Analysis." Whoever told you that obviously has a strong prednisone with little to no actual experience with those bits. It is as simple as described in the video. I easily have hundreds of horses and God only knows how manat hours of actual experience using those bits and have never seen what you are proposing happen.
Now, the whole "bits are only as harsh as the hands" i only agree with this for some bits. Its not a general statement thats good for all bits. I like to use that statement when people are freaking out over a pretty regular curb bit that they are too afraid to use to just pass it off as scary and aggressive.
Truth is, there are lots of bits out there that not even soft hands should be using. Thin twisted wire, wonky combo gag bits that basically are a vice on a horses face, bike chain... I could go on for a while on this. Instead of generalizing that statement, I'd rather point at a bit (for example a mona lisa) and say its not harsh in experienced hands and in a horse that is trained to a high enoigh level to understand the type communication this bit exhibits.
A bit is a tool. It is an inanimate object. It takes on the characteristics of whomever is using it. Someone might take a 1000 gallons of water and save an African village or drown 1000 kittens. Either way, it is not a water problem. I say in the first video that I feel like certain bits should require a license. A tiny twisted wire snaffle is one. The potential of problems with that bit is high, but only BECAUSE OF THE RIDER's HANDS. I could ride most any horse with one without issue, because of my hands. A bit is a tool that works on mechanics. Period! Certain bits have mechanics that make them more or less desirable for certain horses/tasks and certain bits are just plain poorly designed, but your hands are ultimately responsible for any action of the bit.
My two cents for now.
My Two cents. Thanks.
 
#20 ·
I haven't watched this particular video yet Daniel but I can say that I've appreciated the others you've posted. I don't go to all the sections of the forum every day so this is the first I've seen this post and I'll probably watch the video tonight.
 
#21 ·
I like the fact that the video empathizes the fact, particularly far as western curbs, that any bit can be harsh, and also depends on the hands on those reins , BUT also, it depends on the education of that horse_ All to often missed!
A horse needs to 'graduate to a curb, thus able to be ridden with more finesse, and invisible signal, and not for control-something i have spent endless amount of time harping on!
I gotta admit, that I can't watch all those videos on line, burning up my internet down load data allotment, as I am rural an don't have un limited internet access, without major cost!
I have copies of Bob Avila;s series on Bittology and also heard Greg Darrnel 's bitting presentation. Yours is an added resource.
 
#24 · (Edited)
This is from Dr Cook:
"As soon as a bit is placed in the mouth,” says Dr. Cook, “the horse is being signaled to think ‘eat.’ The lip seal is broken; the horse begins to salivate and to move its lips, jaw, and tongue. These are digestive system reflexes, dominated by the parasympathetic nervous system, which initiates all responses to do with rest and relaxation.

When a rider mounts, however, the sympathetic nervous system is also triggered. The horse is now being signaled to think ‘exercise'. Accordingly, an opposing set of fight-and-flight responses is initiated."

"Therefore," Dr. Cook concludes, "bitted horses are being expected - quite unreasonably - to give of their best in terms of athletic performance with these two nervous systems in conflict. The horse is not ‘designed’ to eat and exercise at the same time...

For swallowing, the soft palate has to be in the ‘up’ or dorsal position. Conversely, for deep breathing, the soft palate has to be in the ‘down’ or ventral position. Use of the bit, which encourages the dorsal position, leads to many pharyngeal problems, gagging reflexes, difficulties in breathing, and - less obviously - difficulties in striding," Dr. Cook explains.

"A cantering or galloping horse takes one stride for every breath. Because of this, anything that interferes with breathing also interferes with striding. As the bit breaks the lip seal, air enters the oral cavity. Helped along by movement of the tongue and jaw at exercise, the air creeps upward and invades the oropharynx, the digestive part of the throat, the roof of which is the soft palate.

Because the soft palate floats upward on its bubble of air, this reduces the diameter of the nasopharynx, the respiratory part of the throat. Restriction of the airway from this simple elevation of the soft palate results in partial asphyxia, which may progress to intermittent ‘thickness of wind’ or even a more permanent ‘roaring’ noise (laryngeal stridor)."

Dr. Cook continues, "At fast exercise, this bit-induced elevation of the soft palate can also lead to 'dorsal displacement of the soft palate' (DDSP) and epiglottal entrapment." DDSP is a complete separation of the soft palate seal at the base of the epiglottis. When this happens to a racehorse it is said to have ‘swallowed its tongue'. Such a horse ‘gurgles’, ‘chokes-up’ and is incapable of continuing to race because of suffocation. ‘Roaring’ and DDSP also follow from the horse seeking to evade the bit by retracting the tip of its tongue behind the bit. In this situation it is the root of the tongue that pushes the soft palate up. Exposure of the oropharynx to the drag of the inspiratory vacuum," he explains, "is the cause of epiglottal entrapment."

http://www.bitlessbridle.com/Who_Needs_Bits.pdf
Yes, I think it is all hogwash. I've looked at thousands of photos of my horses and haven't seen the "lip seal" broken - except when they are eating, which they do regularly while trail riding with a bit in their mouth.



Studies have measured swallowing by horses exercising with and without a bit and found no difference.

And just as humans can smoke a cigar without trying to eat it, a horse can hold a bit in its mouth without thinking "DINNER!" - although my horse obviously sees no conflict, either.

Like a lot of psuedo-science, it defies what I see happening in my life. When I went on a low-fat diet, I gained weight. When I stopped worrying about "fat" and ate things I ate as a kid, my portions got smaller and I lost 25 lbs. So who do I believe - the government or my body? The idea that bits interfere with a horse's running fast conflicts with uncounted of millions of horses running fast with a bit in their mouth. But go on YT & there are lots of videos about how any bit is cruel.

The point of the picture of Mia was how freely a curb bit rotates in the mouth prior to the curb strap tightening. If one does the math, pulling my favorite Billy Allen curb thru 45 degrees of rotation results in the bit rising 0.6 inches in the mouth. Then the curb strap locks the shank in place, and it can rise no more (unlike a gag). Because curb bits sag less in the mouth than snaffles do, I generally lower them one hole from what I use with a snaffle - so 1" divided by two sides equals a half inch lower at the start point. Raise that 0.6 inches, and it stops lifting 0.1" above where a snaffle hangs at rest without any reins.

That is why, then the split rein slid on her neck, it could rotate the cheeks far enough to engage the curb strap. That period of initial rotation is VERY free in a horse's mouth - pressure free. For the most part, the bit is just rotating.

But the horse can easily FEEL that rotation. The mouthpiece rotating in the mouth, and the shank rotating next to the face gives very obvious cues to the horse even before any pressure is applied. That is why I believe a well used curb bit is gentler than a sidepull. To cue with a sidepull halter, I have to pull on the horse's face. But to cue with a curb bit, I can rotate the mouthpiece without applying pressure to it.

And as long as one does not snatch on the reins, the horse will ALWAYS get the exact same warning. It is built into the bit's design. In flying jets, recovering from a dive, the dive recovery tables were based on the pilot pulling hard enough on the stick to create a 4 "G" pull in 2 seconds. An excellent pilot told me that was "stick rate input" - you don't jerk on the stick or you can over-G the aircraft. You adjust your "stick rate input" so that you get a smooth increase in pressure to 4 Gs over 2 seconds.

"Rein rate input" applies to riding. If you jerk on the reins, the horse has no warning. The horse cannot do what you want before there is a lot of pressure in the mouth because you haven't given him a chance to respond. That is where the hands come in. If the bit is the correct design (with a 45 deg bend for a horse who carries its face at 45 deg), and the curb strap is adjusted correctly, and the rider doesn't snatch on the reins, then the horse will ALWAYS have a very clear and obvious "signal" before pressure is applied. The horse chooses if she will obey before pressure is applied or after, but the horse will always get the choice.

That is why Mia was easy to transition to a curb bit as a greenish horse who did not stop well and didn't neck rein. The bit in the picture I posted is a well designed Billy Allen. The curb strap was adjusted properly, to allow 45-60 deg of rotation before tightening. And I didn't snatch on the reins. Thus Mia always had a choice - obey before pressure, or obey after pressure. Being a practical animal, she normally started to obey before pressure - a light mouth. Being a strong-willed and independent horse, she sometimes would try to insist on getting her own way. But unlike the snaffle, she never figured out a way to avoid the curb bit - and eventually she learned there was no reason to.

That is why I disagree with the idea that a horse needs to be perfect in a snaffle before moving them into a curb. Used right, a curb actually is a good training device for softness.

So why not use it with Bandit now? Because while Mia's fear reaction was bolting, Bandit's fear reaction is spinning and moving sideways - and a snaffle is a good bit for lateral control. Mia is now a brood mare in northern Arizona, and Bandit...well, he is doing less spinning and twisting after 6 months than he did when he arrived. Curb bits just are not a good choice for working a horse who tries to spin out from under you instead of turn and leap away. But when he is calmer and more confident, I want to transition him to a curb - for gentleness.

Sorry for the long post. If I rode English, and wanted constant contact, I'd probably avoid curb bits. Curb bits work great with a style of riding that wants to minimize contact, as I do. I never want to apply a cue inside the mouth if I can do so outside the mouth. Thus what I was taught for western riding - "Seat, Leg, Reins (if needed)". And with reins? Against the neck, then pull if needed. Always give the horse a chance to obey at the light cue before applying a stronger one, and always stay outside the mouth unless the horse insists you climb inside...
 
#25 ·
i agree with most of your points, BSMS, and you already know where we differ!
Far as Dr Cook, I don't take anything he says as being correct, esp when applied to the way a curb , or even a snaffle, should be used, western.
His study , far as touted mouth damage, was done on race horses and polo horses-both ridden with lots of contact. Sure, polo ponies are ridden one handed, but also with some severe bits and tiedowns-much like many gymkana horses (won't go there right now! )
 
#26 ·
Also wanted to comment on your point, BMSM, that you seem to find much more written English, versus western training principles.
This is of course, due tot he fact that English riding has a much longer history, going back to some of the great masters in horsemanship, that you often refer to
Western riding evolved in the 'new world', with a traditional training system implemented in the Vaquero training method, which in itself had a lot of basics for the "classical horsemanship of the Old World
Newer bits evolved in training programs, that produced a horse up in the bridle in less time then to create a Spade bit horse, and these training programs in turn, were created when traditional type ranch work became show ring type competitions, with finesse added and higher degree of difficulty, which not necessarily reflected practical ranch work
If you look into some of these reining programs, ect, you will see that western riders don't just all get on and just ride.
Many recreational riders do migrate towards riding western, and it is then quite true, many do just get on and ride, probably more than those that chose to start riding English, as there seems to be more of a mind set to take formal lessons, so I do agree with you, in a great part, far as that 'total picture'
 
#27 ·
I can find a dozen excellent books on English riding written in the last 50 years. I've only found one on western riding that I would recommend, and even it is only OK.

Not many folks jump on a horse and start riding with a spade bit. I hope! But many western riders don't show or compete, and a great many of them do learn by riding. In the area where I live, I can't think of anyone I'd recommend as a riding instructor.

If someone wants to compete - be it barrel racing, western pleasure or reining - then they are likely to seek out instruction. They probably NEED to in order to be competitive. But most of the ranchers I've known learned a little from their Dad or Grandad, then just spent a lot of hours in the saddle...with an occasional comment from Granddad, if they are lucky.

That isn't all bad. I've got a book by a guy writing from a very "English" perspective (although he was German), but he wrote,
"It is the horse which is undoubtedly the best and only master of the art of giving the rider a sense of feel. Patiently and untiringly it can tell its rider where he is going wrong. One has only to interpret its reactions and make corresponding corrections....This example should bring home to the reader the importance of taking note of what may seem trivial and not leaving it to the instructor to discover all the problems. Feeling will only be learned by the person who uses his brain and interprets what he feels. Applying this, the rider himself is the best judge of whether he as learned to 'go with the horse's movements', for he should feel himself bumping about in the saddle and can form a judgment as tho whether he can remedy it." - Riding Logic, W. Museler, 1933, 5th edition 1983, underlining mine but italics his.
One of the things I appreciate about Daniel is he brings detailed analysis to his riding. His videos are not a repeating of what can be found easily anywhere because he isn't just repeating common mantras like a parrot. Riding is an art, but it is an art founded on mechanics. And the horse can tell us if we are using the right mechanics, IF WE LISTEN.

Another of my favorite quotes on riding:
"Because of the widespread preconception that you can only learn, in a sort of intuitive way, by doing, and that reading or even thinking seriously about riding is rather pointless, too many young riders are doomed to groping too long in a forest of problems solved long ago. I can recall my astonishment, when I first began to collect books on the techniques of riding, at finding, in books written two or three centuries ago, minute descriptions of "discoveries" that I had made for myself only after a long period of trial and error...Once we become interested in learning about riding, and are not content to repeat interminably the same errors, there is much that we can learn." - William Steinkraus, Riding and Jumping, 1961.
"too many young riders are doomed to groping too long in a forest of problems solved long ago"

Well, I started when I was old, so I cannot afford to just get on and ride until I learn by trial and error. But much of what is in print, and far more of what is on YouTube, is utter rubbish. If someone can't explain WHY they think X, I tend to discount X...because too often X is BS. That is why it is so nice to see someone discuss the mechanics of why X works.
 
#28 ·
Couldn't agree with you more! Unusual,eh?
I myself can testify as to first learning to ride through the trial and error method , when I was young
I came from a non horsey background, and when I was young, no internet, clinics or other great horseman around (that I was exposed to, had access to ), so just learned to ride by the seat of my pants!
My horse training endeavors even started that way!
When I moved out west,a t the tender age of 22, newly graduated as a lab tech, I knew I wanted a horse again, so was told by a fellow tech, of this great 'green broke' horse in the small town of Black Diamond
Yes, I had ridden that spoiled anglo arab stud that my practical non horsey step Dad had bought me, but really had no idea of what 'green broke meant'
I drove out after work, and watched this old cowboy get on this horse, in the back of a dark big shed, and bought him, without getting on him, or even seen him ridden. $200 bucks. Went and bought a saddle for $250
This new 'friend' and fellow tech, told me to use a 'cowboy snaffle' to train this horse (ie, a long shanked broken mouth curb )
Now, you will really get a laugh, concerning how ignorant I was! I was not told that the bit needed a curb strap, until a month or so later, some cowboy took pity, and filled me in
THis was about the time I met my husband. and I thus took him out with me the following weekend to see my new horse
I knew nothing about ground work, how to check a colt around, getting on, ect, so that young horse promptly bucked me off in the manure pile
Years later, my hubby had to tell me how hard it had been for him not to laugh!
Anyway, out of sheer determination, plus the forgiving nature of horses, I did get Tonka well broke, tot he point I rode him into Calgary, had him spend the night in future in laws back yard, then rode him in the Calgary Stampede
Life then happened, work wise, and I sold Tonka, vowing not to have horse again, until we had our own land. Took ten years, where i just borrowed rides, rented horses out west, ect
So, I was in my thirties, and had never taken a clinic, nor shown a horse.
Then, a friend's sister , who was into showing Paints, invited me along to a clinic, and I became 'hooked', on learning, esp as I decided to raise horses and could not afford to send them out for training
I thus had to learn to train those horses, and to become competitive showing against pros, at least at the regional breed level
So, as you read some of my posts, don'at assume that I did not start much like you, or even with way less more formal training-I just started younger!
I just wish I now had the body I used to have, combined with what I have learned over the years. Unfortunately, life does not happen that way!
 
#29 ·
Couldn't agree with you more! Unusual,eh?...
Don't you know how hard it hurts when I fall out of my chair in shock? My wife came running in when she heard me gasping, "Struck by lightning! Struck by lightning!"

But a great story! Thanks for the laughs - and you have my sympathy.

I actually think there are people who listen to their horse and people who don't and won't. Lessons from a good instructor make it easier to listen to the horse and improve. They aren't in conflict at all. It just can be hard to find a good instructor...and good instructors probably find it hard to find good students.
 
#32 ·
Well, that video shows a curb with short straight up and down shanks, much like that true TT, which allows very little signal time before that bit engages, plus if you ride a horse, applying that much pull on a bit with that design, yup, it is going to be severe.
If you are going to ride like that, use a bittless bridle!
Surely, you don't ride in a curb in that manner, pulling the shanks like that!
 
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