'Biting Up'/'Checking Up' - Page 3
 
 

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'Biting Up'/'Checking Up'

This is a discussion on 'Biting Up'/'Checking Up' within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category
  • Biting up a horse training
  • Biting up horse training

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    09-25-2013, 02:14 PM
  #21
Weanling
This is one of those 'normal' practices that I just really do not agree with at all for the most part.

For the most part I hear this done on green horses. Why? Why would you want to have the same pressure on a greenie for any amount of time that is constant? Any half decent rider can teach softness much quicker than it takes to tie a horse around. Tie around too long and you have a horse that's going to be sore and is even more uneducated than when you started. The horse also doesn't learn if it should stand or move.

Personally with a greenie I want things as black and white as possible. I do the same as Punk, I teach this with my hands. If a horse goes to fight you can move with them to keep that fight from escalating or turning to panic. Personally I think it's bull that a horse is going to give themselves a better release. Why? Either way (tied around or with a trainer) the horse is putting slack in the rein, with a rider you can give a bigger release and let that horse relax afterwards, they won't be stuck in that position. IMNSHO if you don't have the timing to release properly with your hands you shouldn't be tying around either.

I've tied around two horses in my years as a trainer, both were 'kid horses' that had learned that it was a handy trick that as soon as the child asked them to turn to yank their head around the other direction, unseating their rider and getting out of work. One of these mares was strong enough that when I did ask her to give, before I even took the slack out she had yanked so hard she dislocated my shoulder. In both cases these horses went back through the groundwork then I loosely tied them around. At that point I then asked them to move around int he round pen at a walk or jog. They were put in a loose ring snaffle and already knew how to disengage their hindquarters and move their front end. With myself in the roundpen it was easy for them to understand to move either end away from me, in the process following their nose and getting soft through their entire body, including their mouth. If they wanted to pull on themselves fine but after a couple laps it wasn't fun and they couldn't get stiff enough through their body to do so very hard. Under 5 minutes they were tied around on either horse. After that I went back and taught the horse to flex with my hands.

IMO tying around is just another gadget I don't have much use for.
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    09-25-2013, 03:14 PM
  #22
Foal
Never heard of this method before. And I'm not sure I've understood it correctly, cause I really can't tell why this method would be necessary(especially not on a green horse!!) or how it's any better than tying a horse down behind the vertical and leaving it like that for longer periods of time to teach it suppleness, giving to the bit, a false headset or whatever.
I get why it might seem like a god idea if you don't have much time or patience for training, but it's just not for me or my way of training.
     
    09-25-2013, 03:35 PM
  #23
Green Broke
I used it twice, once for a gelding that was naturally stiff. I have never seen another like him, stiff as a board from day one. He tried to ignore the bit, resist it, fight it, any thing other than softening up. This technique worked wonders on him. The other time was with a very cantankerous filly. The first day the BO went into the stall, she came up curios, then lightning fast, wheeled around and kicked the BO in both knees. She was 4 months old. When she was first learning to carry a bit(and pretty much every other first in her life), she fought and fought and fought. It didn't matter which bit, or how gentle, or what you were asking her to do. By tying her around slightly, she was able to teach herself to give, and learn to stop fighting, in half an hour.

I don't think it needs to be done on all horses, and I personally would not do it without a full cheek snaffle on, no curbs. As has been mentioned, it has to be supervised, and the handler has to know what they are doing.
     
    09-25-2013, 04:04 PM
  #24
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by xdressage    
Never heard of this method before. And I'm not sure I've understood it correctly, cause I really can't tell why this method would be necessary(especially not on a green horse!!) or how it's any better than tying a horse down behind the vertical and leaving it like that for longer periods of time to teach it suppleness, giving to the bit, a false headset or whatever.
I get why it might seem like a god idea if you don't have much time or patience for training, but it's just not for me or my way of training.
It's really no different then lunging in side reins (or one side rein) for 15 or 20 minutes. The horse naturally teaches himself to give to the bit and not hang on it like a head rest. The horse is only "battling" it out with himself instead of a rider forcing him into it. It gives immiediate release when the horse is doing it correctly. The horse should not be pulled around so hard his chin is touching his shoulder! He should be slightly bent to the inside, in a (normally, to most horses) comfortable position. IMO, less then a 40 degree angle, even less when starting out. It should be done in addition to other training, obviously. It should never be done for hours on end!! In the right hands it can be a very useful training tool, especially if you have many horses to train. Do some biting up for a few minutes until they figure out the release, then carry out the remainder of the lesson on their backs. Then on to the next one.

Different strokes for different folks I guess. If you wouldn't use it on your horses that's dandy, but I've ridden plenty who have had this method used on them and I haven't met a horse with "holes in its training".
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    09-25-2013, 04:08 PM
  #25
Green Broke
Done the Right way, I've done it with some of my show horses. Never a greenie only those that have a very solid base and just need a little more work....the right way. Always monitored never left alone
     
    09-25-2013, 04:16 PM
  #26
Super Moderator
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlideStop    
It's really no different then lunging in side reins (or one side rein) for 15 or 20 minutes. The horse naturally teaches himself to give to the bit and not hang on it like a head rest. The horse is only "battling" it out with himself instead of a rider forcing him into it. It gives immiediate release when the horse is doing it correctly. The horse should not be pulled around so hard his chin is touching his shoulder! He should be slightly bent to the inside, in a (normally, to most horses) comfortable position. IMO, less then a 40 degree angle, even less when starting out. It should be done in addition to other training, obviously. It should never be done for hours on end!! In the right hands it can be a very useful training tool, especially if you have many horses to train. Do some biting up for a few minutes until they figure out the release, then carry out the remainder of the lesson on their backs. Then on to the next one.

Different strokes for different folks I guess. If you wouldn't use it on your horses that's dandy, but I've ridden plenty who have had this method used on them and I haven't met a horse with "holes in its training".
it's not really like lunging with side reins, because side reins should be adjusted that the if the horse lifts from teh shoulders and flexs lightly at the poll, there will be no bit pressure. To do this does not take near the muscle tension that holding the head to a 40 degree angle off to the side will do. A horse has to have muscles on the side of his neck contracted to keep the head off to the side. Contracted for a half hour at a time. Seems like that would build stiffness. Maybe it does build muscle strength there, but do you want those muscles, on the side of the neck, developed?
Don't you want the base of the neck, where it comes out of the chest, and the part of the neck just in front of the withers to be developed?
     
    09-25-2013, 04:29 PM
  #27
Trained
The book I saw it in was "Cutting" by Leon Harrel. Page 51. I'd show his picture of doing it, but it looks like the picture smrobs showed of her horse. He wrote, "The horse is left alone, but observed, in a safe pen for about 15 minutes. He'll learn to give his head to relieve the pressure of a direct pull."

Http://www.amazon.com/Cutting-Western-Horseman-Books-Harrel/dp/0911647155/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1380136661&sr=8-1&keywords=cutting+by+leon+harrell
He also wrote:

"Make sure that your chosen trainer has as much compassion and respect for your horse as they do for you. Do not let them beat up your horse! That is not training, it is ABUSE. Just like yourself, your horse will develop and flourish under positive conditions. It will defeat your purpose if your horse is destroyed in the process of your training program.

Many trainers are only interested in selling you a new horse, rather than working with the one you purchased from someone else. Donít be the next victim of these so called professionals. They are the reason so many new cutters abandon their dreams after only a year or two, and so many talented horses learn to hate their jobs.
"

http://www.leonharrel.com/LeonsStori...ourTrainer.pdf

Leon Harrel Cutting Clinics
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    09-25-2013, 05:00 PM
  #28
Started
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyliny    
it's not really like lunging with side reins, because side reins should be adjusted that the if the horse lifts from teh shoulders and flexs lightly at the poll, there will be no bit pressure. To do this does not take near the muscle tension that holding the head to a 40 degree angle off to the side will do. A horse has to have muscles on the side of his neck contracted to keep the head off to the side. Contracted for a half hour at a time. Seems like that would build stiffness. Maybe it does build muscle strength there, but do you want those muscles, on the side of the neck, developed?
Don't you want the base of the neck, where it comes out of the chest, and the part of the neck just in front of the withers to be developed?
But how many use side reins the way you just described? Training methods are only as good as the person performing them.

My current 2 year old has been tied around a combined total of 14 minutes over two different days, not 30 minutes at a time. I received the response I was looking for and quit. There are other ways I could have arrived at this point (responsive to a pinkie's worth of rein pressure from the ground, as we aren't riding yet,) but for various reasons this is the one I chose for this particular horse on those particular days. A different day, a different horse, maybe a different course of action would have been taken.
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    09-25-2013, 05:21 PM
  #29
Showing
My two sense worth. It's a short cut as the handler seems to think he's too busy to stay with the horse and do it by hand. Two, if done for two long, the neck muscles become sore. What a way to teach a horse to bend!
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    09-25-2013, 05:30 PM
  #30
Green Broke
Quote:
it's not really like lunging with side reins, because side reins should be adjusted that the if the horse lifts from teh shoulders and flexs lightly at the poll, there will be no bit pressure. To do this does not take near the muscle tension that holding the head to a 40 degree angle off to the side will do. A horse has to have muscles on the side of his neck contracted to keep the head off to the side. Contracted for a half hour at a time. Seems like that would build stiffness. Maybe it does build muscle strength there, but do you want those muscles, on the side of the neck, developed?
Don't you want the base of the neck, where it comes out of the chest, and the part of the neck just in front of the withers to be developed?
Sorry, that how it was described to me. Maybe it was a bad analogy. As for the degree, I mentioned comfort of the horse. My horse could hold 40 degrees easily if she needed a "dont resist my hands" refresher but I would never expect a greenie to!! Nor would I expect my horse to hold her head long like that, maybe minutes. If anyone was going to bit up at 40 degrees it should be for very short sessions. Under saddle i'll flex my horses head to her shoulder and ask her to hold it a few seconds. Sessions should all be kept short as a "ok, you get the point horsey?" then carried onto under saddle or ground driving work. Biting up isn't ment to be done for long amounts of time, as in session time or as in weeks at a time. Of course there should be breaks in the session and changes of direction. A few minutes a couple times shouldn't stiffen or build improper muscling. Sorry if my post was unclear.
     

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