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Breaking the Habit

3K views 31 replies 11 participants last post by  jaydee 
#1 ·
Hey guys, so I have a horse that CANNOT be put on grass. If you try to walk him he wants to eat grass and no attempt to get him to stop is successful, you cannot tie him under a tree or anything to groom him 'cause he will put his head down to eat and he moves around making it impossible - I have tried tying his head up enough that he has room to move but not to eat, but that makes him fight more.

How do I train this out of him?


(btw he is a 16 hand Paint horse so if he decides to yank his head away form scrawny little 5'7'' me nothing is going to stop him.)
 
#2 ·
I suspect you are trying to move the wrong end, the one the lead shank is attached to. Get a lunge whip and every time his nose dives downward give him a tap on the hip. If he ignores it, give a harder tap. If he needs a whack the length of the lunge whip will keep you out of kicking range in case he reacts that way. You might want to tape the lash to the whip for convenience so you're not dealing with that as well. He'll get so you can raise your arm toward his hip and he'll keep his head up. As part of this, teach him that only when you press on his neck behind his ears is he allowed to graze.
 
#3 ·
He is doing this because you are letting him. Too loose a lead rope, not paying attention to what horse is doing and not correcting it the very instant horse even thinks it.

And if you are tying him up and he can still get his head down? You are tying him with too long a rope.

I wouldn't go after the hip here, but do a better job of leading horse and your size has nothing to do with this either. It is your handling that is lacking.

Keep shorter hold on lead rope and second head starts down, tell him no, and if he persists, then tap him under chin with side of boot, until he brings head up.

And don't mean to kick him either, but just a persistent tap to get him to bring head up.

And also make sure you are not babying him any.

You really need to be working with someone that has some horse skills, as I imagine this is only the tip of your problems that will be coming with this horse.
 
#4 ·
He is doing this because you are letting him. Too loose a lead rope, not paying attention to what horse is doing and not correcting it the very instant horse even thinks it.

And if you are tying him up and he can still get his head down? You are tying him with too long a rope.

I wouldn't go after the hip here, but do a better job of leading horse and your size has nothing to do with this either.

Keep shorter hold on lead rope and second head starts down, tell him no, and if he persists, then tap him under chin with side of boot, until he brings head up.

And don't mean to kick him either, but just a persistent tap to get him to bring head up.

And also make sure you are not babying him any.
There will be times when you need him to stand still on grass too, so I agree that you need to work on the head, not the hip. As a matter of fact, I would start the "training" that way. Talk him on to the grass, stop, and work on keeping his head up while just standing. Hold the lead right under the snap if you need to so your hand is directly under the chin. As mentioned, you need to stop any downward head movement instantly. Once that head is going down, it is 100x harder to stop or pull up. Once he'll stand for a minute with his head up, take a few steps, stop, and repeat.
You want to reinforce the connection that while on a lead (or under saddle), the head stays up and there is no grazing.
 
#5 ·
I really think it sounds best if you find a good trainer to help you, or experienced horseperson. You need to learn how to be effective & how to pay attention to what's actually happening, because I think this sort of problem is but a 'symptom' of the real issues.
 
#7 ·
I would use a combination of what saddlebag and palomine said. The reason; because from what you describe, this horse is set in his ways and this will take you "proving" to him that if he moves his head down, even and inch, you will make him work/move.

Bascially, lead him to the grass, stop, as soon as he goes to lower his head, give a quick upward movement with your hand. As you have said, he will then "push through" your weaker hand gesture and continue down. As soon as he does this, move his hip and send him in a few circles to the left or right(make sure you have a long enough lead to allow him to move freely in a circle), then make him change direction once or twice. Continue this until he is paying attention to you and doing as you ask. Also, ensure you are really making him really move his feet, either a fast trot or a lope in the circle. Once he is listening to you, lead him to a new location in the grass. Stop and see if he will stand without attempting to eat--he probably won't, but allow him to "mess up" and then start the schooling process over again. Then, keep repeating....

You have to continue doing this until HE will keep his head up with the minimum of movement(or a word like "quit" or "stop") from you. It will probably take two or three days to get him to fully understand and respect the fact that he will have to wait until you allow him to graze; otherwise, he gets to work.....and he won't like having to work.
 
#11 ·
Sounds like a good plan. :)

I agree with Saddlebag about moving the hind end of the hrose if he ignores your snap of the leadline to say "no!" to putting his head down to the grass. when leading, I will give the hrose plenty of leadline, so he CAN make the mistake if he wants to, becuase I can make him move forward quickly if he does, and make him not want to make that mistake again.

but, when he's tied up, it's a bit harder to use the "move!" method to make him stop grazing. Ususallly it isn't a big problem becuase we have worked it all out while I was still leading, and he knows and obeys the rules, and if he tries to put his head down to graze , a short snap of the leadline is all that is required to remind him.

however, if he persists . . . .



I know this sounds awful, but if I have made it perfectly clear to the horse that he is not to graze when tied up, and he totally ignores the snap of the leadline when he goes down to graze, I may reach my foot over and give him a short kick in the jaw. now don't get all hysterical, I'm talking about a short sharp tap of my toe on his jaw paired with an "AH! " to verbally scold him sharply.

Those are some great ideas, I tried somethings very similar and I think it was helpful (I will right some more about this below)


Some horses can yank the lead line out of the person's hand when it dives for grass, or pull the handler off balance. Cherokee, you horse has been trained that you hold his lead about 30" away from the clip. This is really a safer position. If he should scoot ahead his shoulder won't hit you possibly knocking you down. I have dealt with many spoiled horses over many years and from experience, a tap on the hip is more effective. Think of it this way. When a car is stuck no one runs to the front to pull on the bumper. No, they go behind the car to push it forward. A whack on the hip will move your horse forward, another reason for holding the lead well away from the clip. It will allow him to circle you. I hope you are using a knotted rope halter.

I will try the knotted halter. And I will try the other things you suggested, they sound like they will work well with him.


Update:

Today was my first day back to the ranch after 3 months of being sick (blah) and it was my first day working with Jags. I tried things very similar to what you all said, I will also try the knotted rope halter it sounds like it will be helpful. Any-Ways I made sure he knew from square one that I wasn't going to let him push me around, we had some trouble coming out of the gate, he was to eager but I couldn't correct that right away, I had two other horses to keep IN the pen.

Right after this I made sure he knew we were going to walk at MY pace and that he wasn't to cross in front of me. I managed to keep his head up most of the time while I walked him around and we were fine for the most part. However when I tied him to groom him he started trying to eat again, I pulled his head up and used my verbal cue "Head Up" which he understands. Unfortunately 5 minutes of this and he wouldn't keep his head up.

I gave him one sharp pop on the nose ( nobody freak out, it stung but it didn't hurt) after that he only needed a few gentle reminders to keep his head up.

This is my first day with him so I didn't push him past walking, grooming, and walking again before I put him in. He tested me several times - Grazing, rubbing and pushing against me, etcetera. I put him in his place as best as I could and he seemed to react well. I'll see how he does tomorrow and give you guys another update. :)
 
#8 ·
I agree with Saddlebag about moving the hind end of the hrose if he ignores your snap of the leadline to say "no!" to putting his head down to the grass. when leading, I will give the hrose plenty of leadline, so he CAN make the mistake if he wants to, becuase I can make him move forward quickly if he does, and make him not want to make that mistake again.

but, when he's tied up, it's a bit harder to use the "move!" method to make him stop grazing. Ususallly it isn't a big problem becuase we have worked it all out while I was still leading, and he knows and obeys the rules, and if he tries to put his head down to graze , a short snap of the leadline is all that is required to remind him.

however, if he persists . . . .



I know this sounds awful, but if I have made it perfectly clear to the horse that he is not to graze when tied up, and he totally ignores the snap of the leadline when he goes down to graze, I may reach my foot over and give him a short kick in the jaw. now don't get all hysterical, I'm talking about a short sharp tap of my toe on his jaw paired with an "AH! " to verbally scold him sharply.
 
#9 ·
Some horses can yank the lead line out of the person's hand when it dives for grass, or pull the handler off balance. Cherokee, you horse has been trained that you hold his lead about 30" away from the clip. This is really a safer position. If he should scoot ahead his shoulder won't hit you possibly knocking you down. I have dealt with many spoiled horses over many years and from experience, a tap on the hip is more effective. Think of it this way. When a car is stuck no one runs to the front to pull on the bumper. No, they go behind the car to push it forward. A whack on the hip will move your horse forward, another reason for holding the lead well away from the clip. It will allow him to circle you. I hope you are using a knotted rope halter.
 
#10 ·
Just to add an obvious one in addition to everyone elses responses - do not, ever, allow your horse to graze in hand. He's obviously got it over you, but allowing him even once to graze whilst at the end of a lead you will put yourself back to square one.
Some horses are well mannered enough to be able to graze in hand, and that is fine. As long as they know that when you ask them to move on, they do.
 
#12 ·
You'd have more power over him if you led him in a bridle for a while - put a surcingle on him and fasten side reins or grass reins on to it from the bit so he can't physically get his head down - he'll be pulling against himself then instead of pulling against you
You can attach your lead rope to a 2 way coupling strap that attaches to the bit on each side and has a ring in the middle to clip the lead rope on to
 
#13 ·
You'd have more power over him if you led him in a bridle for a while - put a surcingle on him and fasten side reins or grass reins on to it from the bit so he can't physically get his head down - he'll be pulling against himself then instead of pulling against you
You can attach your lead rope to a 2 way coupling strap that attaches to the bit on each side and has a ring in the middle to clip the lead rope on to

His bridle broke awhile ago so I need to get a new one (in the process of getting new tack since I don't have his saddle any more either) I've actually never heard of a surcingle, what is it and is it very expensive?
 
#19 ·
Something like this has the rings to clip side reins on to - I'm sure you could find something cheaper
You could fasten side reins from a leather halter on to it
Training Surcingle - Lungeing Equipment from SmartPak Equine
This ones cheaper and would probably do the job just as well
Professional Training Surcingle=

Thanks! :)

I have had several children with ponies that take advantage of them because they are artful and stronger than the child. Every time I have taught the children to use their foot against the pony's head to get it up and it works every time. Moving their hind end doesn't work because often the animal will just set its neck and charge off.

A friend of mine had a very ill mannered horse. Blasted animal chewed on everything it could and usually managed to ruin a set of reins at least once a week. She asked me to hold this horse whilst she walked a CC course. I stood with him and in no time at all he had both reins in his mouth. This resulted in me giving him a good hard slap across his muzzle and yanking the reins back. He looked at me totally shocked. A minute later he tried again with just one rein, he got the same treatment, the third time he looked at me and to oh the rein in his lip. Same punishment. When he realised he couldn't do that he immediately stuck his head down to eat the grass. I asked him to raise his head with one rein and felt like the little children did! I just gave him a short sharp wallop with my foot on the end of his nose.
After that he stood like he should have in the first place.
Funny thing was, when I handed his reins to his owner he immediately grabbed them both to chew. I walloped him and yanked the reins back. He looked at his owner in shock he thought she had punished him! He stopped chewing everything after that.
It's funny how many problems are solved that way, it may not be the quote unquote 'best way' to train a horse but as long as you are disciplining and not abusing it usually works.

I know of two instances this happened of the top of my head:

1) Our Farrier had a horse that nipped him looking for treats every time he came to the fence, the horse had had a owner who spoiled him before, our Farrier had a wooden handle to a tool in his hand and smacked the horse between the eyes with it, that horse was never a problem again.

2) My grandfather had a colt nip him on the arm and he smacked him on his rump with the lead rope in his hand, Joch never nipped again.

It sounds like a really harsh thing to do, especially if you want a 'relationship' with your horse, but as long as it isn't abusive it actually helps in the long run.

I was a bit fearful to admit that I "kicked" a horse in the jaw, but it looks like others use this, too, and understand it's a tap, not a smash, of the toe.
I've had to smack a horse on the neck/shoulder, tap their chin with my boot, smack their noses with my hand/lead rope, and tap their legs with my short riding crop. ( I use this to break their habit of kicking and pawing the ground.) 9/10 times it does the trick the other times I usually haven't had to use these techniques.



I'm going out to work with Jags in a few minutes and I will give you an update afterwords. :)
 
#15 ·
I have had several children with ponies that take advantage of them because they are artful and stronger than the child. Every time I have taught the children to use their foot against the pony's head to get it up and it works every time. Moving their hind end doesn't work because often the animal will just set its neck and charge off.

A friend of mine had a very ill mannered horse. Blasted animal chewed on everything it could and usually managed to ruin a set of reins at least once a week. She asked me to hold this horse whilst she walked a CC course. I stood with him and in no time at all he had both reins in his mouth. This resulted in me giving him a good hard slap across his muzzle and yanking the reins back. He looked at me totally shocked. A minute later he tried again with just one rein, he got the same treatment, the third time he looked at me and to oh the rein in his lip. Same punishment. When he realised he couldn't do that he immediately stuck his head down to eat the grass. I asked him to raise his head with one rein and felt like the little children did! I just gave him a short sharp wallop with my foot on the end of his nose.
After that he stood like he should have in the first place.
Funny thing was, when I handed his reins to his owner he immediately grabbed them both to chew. I walloped him and yanked the reins back. He looked at his owner in shock he thought she had punished him! He stopped chewing everything after that.
 
#18 ·
Ponies are little devils for taking advantage! Grass reins all the way until the child has the strength to stop them.

As a child, bringing in a pony from the fields to the riding school, bareback and with a plaited bailer twine halter, I fell 17 times from one little toe rag called Tommy. He would turn off the track across an open field, trot down the hill with his head down and stop dead and I would go over his non existent withers!
Every time I took him back to the gate and tried again. Took an hour or more before I did manage to get him to the stables without him eating. I was so chuffed with my achievement.
In retrospect I realise he was probably to full of good grass to want to eat! :lol:
 
#20 ·
I'm not averse to giving a horse some physical punishment when its called for - something its the only thing that they take notice of. Honey's the only one of mine that needs it but she's like a bulldozer if she gets it in her head to go somewhere and a good slap gives her a wake up call that reminds her where her manners are
Loosie - I'm with Grass Reins every time, it helps the child stay confident and stops ponies from developing the habit
 
#21 ·
was walking mine the other day and had a saddle on her --- then stopped to try to pick her feet

she kept putting her head down to try to eat the grass

so i took her lead rope and wrapped it around the saddle horn with enough slack to move her head around for balance, but kept her head from getting within a foot of the ground --- just out of reach

i imagine you could probably do the same thing -- use 2 leads -- one tied to the saddle horn to keep his head from getting far enough down to eat the grass and 1 to lead with

of course -- the horse will probably find that really annoying -- so if he throws his head or paws the ground, he is acting up and you need to move his feet
 
#23 · (Edited)
Update on the Jags:

Sorry I didn't update yesterday, crazy day.

Any-Way yesterday Jags was a pain, this came in 2 stages: 1) I took him out to groom him and he tried to graze twice but the lead was a little to short so he then decided that standing still would kill him..

Today my grandmother was out with me so we tag teamed him, it's kinda hard for one person to keep the horses head, keep him from trying to pull the knot in his lead loose, and clean a back hoof at the same time. He was mostly a jewel the entire time. I think we have come to a bit of an understanding, but I'll see how he acts tomorrow.

However I noticed one little problem both yesterday and today. I took him out of the pen before my grandfather fed on both days so he had to eat separate from the others. Whenever he sees the 'food cart' my grandfather uses to carry the feed and hay or he sees a food bucket/feed/hay, he gets over eager and tries to rush over to it. Every time he tried this I made him walk the other way and wouldn't let him eat until he approached it calmly. Is there some tick I need to use or should I just keep doing this?
 
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#24 ·
The only thing you can do is keep on being tough with him
As for the feed cart thing - well horses have the mental capacity similar to a 2 year old child, they lead quite boring lives really so food becomes the highlight of their day and the most exciting thing that happens to them
I know he should have to deal with seeing it - but until you've got a better understanding of who's in charge maybe your grandfather could avoid trundling it around in his sight
 
#25 ·
The only thing you can do is keep on being tough with him
As for the feed cart thing - well horses have the mental capacity similar to a 2 year old child, they lead quite boring lives really so food becomes the highlight of their day and the most exciting thing that happens to them
I know he should have to deal with seeing it - but until you've got a better understanding of who's in charge maybe your grandfather could avoid trundling it around in his sight
I would hate to be a horse. Well maybe if I could retain my human mind, then I would love it. :) That sounds good, I'll talk to my grandfather about it. I think Jags is starting to get the idea that I am the 'alpha' in his heard. :)
 
#27 ·
I'm sure if you keep building on asserting yourself - firm but fair - you'll eventually win the battle
I sometimes think that food is the highlight of my day so I can totally empathize with a horse!!!!

I'm sure I will. :) However I have a new problem. Jags has taken to nipping and nosing bags/tack boxes. 'ARGH!!' :-x My grandmother pointed out that one of his former owners spoiled him so now that he is being worked again he expects treats. How do I correct his, besides a firm smack when he bites me. I really don't want to resort to smacking him every time I need to correct him, though I only need a verbal cue to get his head up now.

:hide: ('cause he's cute. {; )
 
#28 ·
I will give a horse a quick sharp slap if it actually tries to bite - it has to be done immediately and with a verbal reprimand as well in a disapproving tone of voice - once they associate that with the punishment its usually enough to just use your voice as a warning.
The messing about with tack boxes thing - its mostly down to curiosity and some horses seem to need things to occupy themselves more than others. I can't leave anything like that in with Jazzy because she sees it as a game or a challenge
Prevention might be better than cure - or part of the cure - don't leave things in reach is my best suggestion.
 
#30 · (Edited)
Update:

So Jags and I are still learning, he's still testing his limits, and I'm still learning his tricks. (He has some pretty good ones.) But I think we are starting to understand each other.

I tried something unusual today, I was having trouble controlling him and he is unresponsive to lunging out of the round pen (don't have a round pen/any tips for this?) I attached two lead ropes to either side of his halter and tied them together, I put them over his neck like reins. I then stood beside him and used them to control his head, using verbal cues to signal when to move or stop accompanied by an occasional tap on his hind leg with the long whip.

I didn't have any problems with grazing unless I made him stand still for more than few seconds, however we had no problems while walking. He did not fight with me at all ( with a single lead rope he would have) I walked him for about 30-40 feet one way and then turned him and walked back, I also made him circle a few trees. He did very well with this.

So anything to say/suggest??? I'm all ears. :)
 
#32 ·
What you were doing sounds a bit like what I call long reining - Drive lining in the US I think. Good idea as he probably associates it with work
Its possible someone led him out to graze at some time in his life and he thinks that's what's going to happen when you lead him on to grass
 
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