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Can't stop my Horse

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        08-17-2009, 10:41 AM
      #21
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by kevinshorses    
    Make him work much harder at the barn than on the trail. If he charges back to the barn and you get off of him and put him away there is no way he'll stop wanting to get back to the barn. Ride him out then ride him back and work him hard in the yard then ride him back out on the trail.
    I agree. I know it is frustrating, but try and remain calm and steadfast in working her. You may want to start out just moving away from the barn a short distance then working her from there on the return, working your way further away from the barn each time. Do not let her get away with it anymore, just be prepared to not stop until she improves ... then you can stop, from there I'd tie her to a tree and let her stand for a while saddled. This way she'll associate the barn w/work and once back to the barn she is not immediately unsaddled and let go.
         
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        08-17-2009, 10:50 AM
      #22
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marecare    
    A lot of brag and bravado as usual,but not much help to the OP.
    I am offering advice. Going back to the ground won't help. Lunging her, teacher her Whoa from the ground doesn't help.
    Using padded halters, side pulls, bitless won't help.
    You need a good bit, one that will stop a horse and use it in a firm manner to teach manners.
    I spend NO time on the ground, everything is done from the back. I believe in a bit, a snaffle for me but if the person is not skilled or strong then use a stronger bit, use it gentlely but when the time comes get his attention.
    Horses don't understand please, they don't understand reasoning. The head horse in a field doesn't control the others with please and thank you, he uses his teeth and hooves and enforces his position.
    You have to do the same.
         
        08-17-2009, 10:52 AM
      #23
    Weanling
    I probably only put in about 20 miles this past weekend, slacking, I know.

    Groundwork is not a waste of time and not something that I think can always be done better astride. When I get a horse with serious physical issues, a terribly depleted topline, and seriously poor posture, then I am going to do groundwork before I compromise that horse with more weight on its back. This way, I can help it physically and mentally before asking it to carry extra weight.

    I have bucked out my share of horses, worked with plenty of runaways, had plenty of horses that upon meeting me, though I would look better stomped into the ground. My mission with these horses is not "how do I make this behavior stop", but "why did this happen in the first place". That is what I am looking to fix. Prevention to these habits is education of the person. Through the years, people have begun to lost their ability to work kinesthetically. To tell a person to do what you are telling them to do is downright dangerous to the person and the horse without the right experience and knowledge. Even now, I prefer to teach the horse how to balance itself before adding that weight. I like to teach them to invite the rider on.

    Groundwork builds confidence, understanding, and acceptance. All of these together help develop the rider and the horse in a safer way. It might be slower, but if we can get to the same destination without instilling fear in the rider and the horse, that is the route that I choose to take.

    To the OP, no, a bigger bit is not going to fix your problem. It may be able to control it for a while, but I always look for a horse to want to work with me rather than just make it something that they have to tollerate or feel pain.

    So to my original question, why does the horse blow through the bit? First of all, it would be lack of respect for the aid. This can be established solidly at home. Work on your walk and halt transitions, and stand until the horse is able to find relaxation in the stand still. Make sure that there is more to telling your horse to stop than just the bit. Make sure your eyes are up, you're feeling your seat drop into the saddle, vocal commands are helpful, and keep anything pushing forward off of the horse. Many people are pulling back on the reins while everything else in their body is screaming "run away". Practice your stops until your horse is stopping off of all of the signals and the bit is only the reinforcement if needed. Do this by practicing this way, give the command with seat and voice, follow up within a couple seconds with rein. Make sure you are not leaning forward and are relaxed in your seat, not tensing up. If you are insecure doing this at home in the saddle, then start it on the ground. I have no problems with that. If you are not feeling confident, then your horse has no reason to accept you in the leader role, and therefore no reason to stop when you say stop if their security lies in the barn. If you feel this in the least, then start on the ground and progress to the saddle. Strive for perfection with your commands. I'm not simply looking for a horse to stop, but I want them to stop NOW. I can only expect that if I have given the horse the tools to accept that and the solidity in my leadership.

    Start with walking on your rides. Every time you stop, stay there until the horse is relaxed with where it is. Otherwise, you are not accomplishing the ultimate goal of the horse finding comfort in standing with you. I am not a huge fan of make them work when they are not doing what you want, mainly because I want my horses to want to work.

    Don't expect your horse to have a quick fix here, remember that consistency leads to leadership. Knowledge and practice lead to consistency. You can only expect of the horse what you are willing to give to him. Its not a matter of teaching someone how to drive when we are teaching them to ride a horse, its a matter of teaching them how to be a leader, a mechanic, an observer, a listener, an educator, an athlete, and once you do that, the driving comes easily.

    Try to figure out where the problem stems from, don't be afraid to ask for help, and don't get in over your head, if you lose your cool, the horse will lose theirs.
         
        08-17-2009, 12:35 PM
      #24
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by FlitterBug    
    Groundwork is not a waste of time and not something that I think can always be done better astride. When I get a horse with serious physical issues, a terribly depleted topline, and seriously poor posture, then I am going to do groundwork before I compromise that horse with more weight on its back. This way, I can help it physically and mentally before asking it to carry extra weight.

    .
    I don't know about most but to keeping a horse for me is about $5000 per year. It costs the same to keep a good one as it does to keep a poor one. The cost of a horse is minor compared to the cost of keeping it.
    Why bother with a poor one. If you are out looking for a prospect pick a good one, spend a little more but pick a good foundation.
    I would not pick one with a serious physical issue.
    It is great that people out there are willing to take in physical diabled horses but I won't work with one or keep one myself.
    At a cost of $5000 times the years you hang onto them it is just not worth it.
         
        08-17-2009, 12:58 PM
      #25
    Showing
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RiosDad    
    I am offering advice. Going back to the ground won't help. Lunging her, teacher her Whoa from the ground doesn't help.
    Using padded halters, side pulls, bitless won't help.
    You need a good bit, one that will stop a horse and use it in a firm manner to teach manners.
    I spend NO time on the ground, everything is done from the back. I believe in a bit, a snaffle for me but if the person is not skilled or strong then use a stronger bit, use it gentlely but when the time comes get his attention.
    Horses don't understand please, they don't understand reasoning. The head horse in a field doesn't control the others with please and thank you, he uses his teeth and hooves and enforces his position.
    You have to do the same.
    This idea of training is what I try my darndest to avoid.

    You DO NOT need a harsher bit!

    To the poster that suggested a higher port/longer shanks/noseband - good grief! No no no no and no again!

    Going back to the ground will help. If you install a solid verbal "WHOA" on the horse in hand, and transfer it to the saddle, I think you're moving in the right direction. Get the horse stopping on command while on a lead first, then move it to the lunge line.

    WHOA should come from the seat, not the hands and certainly not from the bit. Sitting deeper and relaxing your back can do wonders that yanking on a horse's mouth can't.

    We are not horses in a herd. We do not need to kick or bite or do any of that nonsense. Horses are smart critters and definitely understand voice commands. Hell, they can feel a fly, so certainly slight position changes of a rider would be sufficient.
    sjwrightauthor likes this.
         
        08-17-2009, 03:30 PM
      #26
    Weanling
    It sounds to me as though your horse has more of an issue with being barn sour than with a sticky whoa. I agree completely with making her work harder on her way back. Do lots of roll backs, circles etc. When she starts to slow down release and let her continue on but when she starts trying to pick up speed again- make her work.

    I must say that I whole heartedly disagree with RiosDad's statements about ground work. Ground work lays a foundation for under saddle work. Most of the training we do is based on the assumption that they learn something and can then carry what they learned over into another excersize. By doing groundwork we lay down a foundation to build upon. As with everything there are those people who take groundwork to the extreme and get stuck there and don't advance and you must be sadly lumping everyone into that group. I won't continue on with what else I found wrong in your statements but you are seriously missing out on some very basic theories concerning hores training.
         
        08-17-2009, 04:17 PM
      #27
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RiosDad    
    I don't know about most but to keeping a horse for me is about $5000 per year. It costs the same to keep a good one as it does to keep a poor one. The cost of a horse is minor compared to the cost of keeping it.
    Why bother with a poor one. If you are out looking for a prospect pick a good one, spend a little more but pick a good foundation.
    I would not pick one with a serious physical issue.
    It is great that people out there are willing to take in physical diabled horses but I won't work with one or keep one myself.
    At a cost of $5000 times the years you hang onto them it is just not worth it.

    I manage a rather large rescue facility and I am one of the head trainers. We don't really get to pick what comes in, nor do I pay for them. However, it is my job to retrain these horses to the point where they can be placed in relatively novice homes. We work with the extremes and the hopeless on all levels along with the people with the hearts big enough to take them in, but rarely the experience needed. Working with these horses not only gives me the knowledge to fix them, but also the knowledge of prevention. I could pump out well started horses if I wanted, but where is the challenge in that? Problem horses and problem people are just what I work with. I don't choose the horses that I get to work, its usually just the last stop.
         
        08-17-2009, 04:53 PM
      #28
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by FlitterBug    
    I manage a rather large rescue facility and I am one of the head trainers. We don't really get to pick what comes in, nor do I pay for them. However, it is my job to retrain these horses to the point where they can be placed in relatively novice homes. We work with the extremes and the hopeless on all levels along with the people with the hearts big enough to take them in, but rarely the experience needed. Working with these horses not only gives me the knowledge to fix them, but also the knowledge of prevention. I could pump out well started horses if I wanted, but where is the challenge in that? Problem horses and problem people are just what I work with. I don't choose the horses that I get to work, its usually just the last stop.

    You are to be commended for your hard work and knowledge!
    It is people like you that make a BIG difference.

    Thank You
         
        08-17-2009, 05:04 PM
      #29
    Green Broke
    ^ I agree.
         
        08-17-2009, 05:48 PM
      #30
    Started
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RiosDad    
    I don't know about most but to keeping a horse for me is about $5000 per year. It costs the same to keep a good one as it does to keep a poor one. The cost of a horse is minor compared to the cost of keeping it.
    Why bother with a poor one. If you are out looking for a prospect pick a good one, spend a little more but pick a good foundation.
    I would not pick one with a serious physical issue.
    It is great that people out there are willing to take in physical diabled horses but I won't work with one or keep one myself.
    At a cost of $5000 times the years you hang onto them it is just not worth it.
    Perhaps it's the difference in the geographical area, (and not that it really applies to the topic... sorry) but unless I have an unforseen vet expense my annual cost per horse (kept stabled @ home with daily turnout) is generally under $1,000. Believe me, I was in 4-H for 6 years, and we have to track every penny as part of our projects. If I learned a thing from 4-H it was book-keeping, lol.

    I do understand from your other posts and threads that you do and have done a lot of work with horses and training for yourself and others, and that this probably takes up much of your time, but for me personally, I derive a lot of enjoyment from dealing with "issues," building/repairing foundations, and tweaking. So much of that can be aided and expedited through the correct use of groundwork. Instead of riding through ten minutes of "bronc-y" attitude and bucking on a greenie, you can start the first ride on an attentive, calm (albeit likely confused, it is the hypothetical first ride...) animal. Ideally, the yougster has been brought up with manners taught to it and lots of exposure to different stimuli, and the necessity for pre-ride groundwork is minimal. In my experience, which is all that I can comment on, five minutes of groundwork with a fresh or green horse can save tons of energy, pulling, kicking, and headache for all involved later in the ride.

    Also, if horses do not understand the basic concept of reacting to "please," why does my horse move politely out of the way when I merely look at his hip/shoulder, move forward instantly to a gentle touch of my leg, and stop off the twitch of my pinkie on the rein/lead? Yes, please is a concept that must be taught to a horse, but every human must learn it as well. "Gimme" and "Lemme" are innate, "Please" and "Yes'm/Yessir" must me learned.

    Just my 2 cents.

    Kudos, Flitterbug, on all of your hard work with the horses and humans you've helped. Absolutely awesome!
         

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