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clicker training?

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        11-25-2010, 02:01 PM
      #11
    Trained
    [QUOTE=loosie;827808]Be interested to see that vid, as I've only seen a few vids of her & they were all impressive.(Parelli on the other hand - don't let him within cooee of your dogs... but that's another issue)

    Curious definition of training you have IMO. So your animals do things you ask just because you say so, with no consequences whatsoever for their actions? How did you teach them to do that? I suspect you really mean they do what you ask because through negative reinforcement/punishment it is easier for them to do it & more unpleasant for them if they don't. I wonder why you think rewarding an animal for desirable behaviour is a problem?



    I do not training using solely what you call negative reinforcement. I use positive reinforcement but also corrections. If you use positive reinforcement all the time you will get an animal that asks 'whats in it for me?' and you will only beable to get them to do something if you have a treat [for example]. 'positive reinforcement' should be used when they are learning new things or randomly throughout training, but not all the time. As I said before if I ask my animal to do something they should do it because I said so and because I am the leader. I believe that a good leader never yells, hits, or gets out of control and that is how I train my animals.

    Based on what I said earlier I do not understand your question about consequences...
         
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        11-25-2010, 09:07 PM
      #12
    Trained
    Hi Gypsy,

    First & foremost, let me apologise for the 'tone' my comment to you may have come across. I meant no disrespect, but rereading my quote, it sounds a bit terse.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by gypsygirl    
    if you use positive reinforcement all the time you will get an animal that asks 'whats in it for me?' and you will only beable to get them to do something if you have a treat [for example]. 'positive reinforcement' should be used when they are learning new things or randomly throughout training, but not all the time.
    Agree with your last sentence above, but with regard to the first one, IMO they already ask what's in it for them & c/t is just a matter of providing 'payment' for it rather than something unpleasant for not doing it. Regarding them only doing what you want if you have a treat, that is about what & how you train(if that's the 'rules' you've inadvertently taught them), not whether or not you use +R or treats.

    Quote:
    based on what I said earlier I do not understand your question about consequences...
    You wrote; "I don't think its really training because the animal does it because somethings in it for them, not because you said so." Which seemed to me, that unless you discount the undesirable consequences(-R & punishment), you expect a horse to respond to you without reason. Horses learn & behave according to cause & effect, like all animals, which is why I doubted that comment. It seems it's just the way it sounded to me, not what you meant tho.
         
        11-26-2010, 12:53 AM
      #13
    Foal
    I do work with clickertraining.

    Gypsygirl, you're talking about this women on dvd who invented clickertraining? You should not believe everything on dvd, I gues.

    It was Pavlov, I think around 1904 who invented that giving a signal (a bell in this case) could create a physical reaction at a dog, if he learned food was coming.
    It became the base to the box of skinner, who did had a great influence on using a signal to train behaviour.
    It was used in the war, to learn piggions to strear racets and dolfins to find mines.
    The balleys did even go further than that and trained all possible animals with the clicker or other signals (like lightsignal) They proved that you even could train a goldfish.
    Now a days clickertraining is the way dolphins and orka's are trained for shows (even if they use a wissle... its the same principle)
    Even wild animals in the zoo get clickertraining to make sure the vet can give them a injection/check on ther health without getting himself into danger

    Yes, is works. Its scientificly proved that is works.
    What doesn't work are a lot of trainers.

    You see... its not as simple as it may seem. There is a whole science backom the clickertraining and you do need to know exacly how it works, before getting in to it.
    You need to know the importense of timing, rewarding exact the right thing, seeiing what you animal is trying to do, reconizing a good trie, beein able to split up a excersize in really really smal bits, make sure your animal can succeed, understand the specific behaviour of the animal you want to train, understand how easy you can train the wrong thing if you don't understand how it excacly works, beeing very consequent and beein able to concentrate 100%

    Its not about taking a clicker (or whatever) and food, and just getting starded.
    You need to know what you're doing

    The reasen why clickertraining goes wrong/does not work for some people had nothing to do with the training itself, but by the mistakes the trainer makes.
    (And you will make mistakes att start...it doesn't mather as long as you understand its you're mistake and think about the mistake you made)

    Its not only that horses won't start mugging if proper trained. On the contarary. You can even stop a mugging horse, doing so.
    You just need really good training skills to do so. And that's not easy.
    Actually... its hard work and you need lots of selfreflexion.

    I like it .... becourse its learning me to look at the good things my horse (or dag of cat... and I even trained a chicken) does and not at the things I don't like.
    Oh and i'm not always succesfull. The other day I starded a topic about behaviour from my horse witch I saw as a problem.
    Later I understood I was looking in the traditional way again (i had been with horses all of my live, but starded clicker two years ago... its completly different)
    I did sit down and think again and i'v solved the problem by thinking out of the box.

    The principle is not thinking about the things you're horse can not do or does wrong in you're opinion, but to think in terms what he can do or what goes right and work from that point of vieuw. Setting up for succes, even in a way far beyond parelli (i did that to for a kopple of years)
    So you learn to look at the positive things in the horse and a horse can feel that.

    I would not recomment to use the clicker for some excersizes and use pressure in other. In my opinion its confusing for the horse.
    I should think that you have to think things over really clear before making the decission what you want to do.

    Training with the clicker is not always easy and you're going to face problems, witch you have to solv. You can learn a lot, doing this, but its something you have to realise.
    Clickertraining also creats animals who starting to participate, wanting to do things, starting to think for them selves, making descisions and starting to communicat. A LOT
    You need to think, before getting into clickertraining, if you want a thinking, participating and communicating horse.
    Becourse it meens you have a lot to work on by you're self. These horses will tell you if you're not concentrating or if you're not correct with you're bodylanguege and so on

    On the other hand... horses (and other animals) love it.
    My horses come running to me if they see its training time, allmost calling... me first... They love the training and put great effort in it.
    Like I said... i've been with horses all of my life but this is a whole new experience,

    But most importend, starting with clickertraining , is taking time to learn you're horse the basics and ground manners. You can not train correctly with a horse without this basics and manners. It takes time, but it pays back. Big time,
    My horses are never mugging or pushy, even if food is about the most importend thing in their lives.
    Its just a question of training

    Like a clickertraining in sweden said... there ar no naughty horses, just untrained or unmotivad horses.

    About the horse doining something becourse there's something in it for them....

    Think about it... would you work without a salari, just to please you're bos?
    You might... if you like him a lot and you know or if he's getting annoyning if you don't, but would you not work harder if you did get something you liked? Like a big time salari?
    And would you not like you're bos even more if he just saw the things you do well and rewarded that, and forget about the little mistakes you made?

    And ofcourse... if you're really really fond of somebody, you may do thinks just becourse you want that (but that may be a typical human-thing).
    But what if you did something for this person and this person showed her of his grattitude by, f.o. Inviting you for a nice meal. Ofcourse... that was not the reasen you did it. But it is still a nice gesture, isn't it. You maybe even more willing to do something for this person efter that.

    Becourse its just a law. Positive reinforcement makes behaviour likely to reappear.

    If you're interested, take a look at the sides of Karin Pryor (don't shoot the dog is a good book about PR), Alexandra Kurland and even Ben Hart.
         
        11-26-2010, 06:35 PM
      #14
    Trained
    Well explained Liljebo, and well written, considering English is obviously not your native tongue.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by liljebo    
    Gypsygirl, you're talking about this women on dvd who invented clickertraining? ....It was Pavlov,....
    I took it that Gypsy was referring to Karen Pryor, the dolphin & whale trainer, who while not actually 'inventing' anything, started using the same techniques with dogs, using a clicking toy as the bridging signal. Because she started it with a clicker and popularised the method with domestic animals(and people btw), she is thought of as the founder of c/t.

    Quote:
    You see... its not as simple as it may seem. There is a whole science backom the clickertraining and you do need to know exacly how it works, before getting in to it. ....
    You just need really good training skills to do so. And that's not easy.
    Actually... its hard work and you need lots of selfreflexion.
    As I also tried to emphasise, I agree it's vital to learn the principles(laws of learning, if you like) behind it, to be effective. But I don't agree with the second comment above. Of course, the better your training skills, the easier it is, but I don't think you have to be good at it to make it work at all. In fact it was in studying behavioural psych that I first tried training, and even in hindsight, I think my beginner skills at it were effective(even if also laden with mistakes) I think it is also a great method of training the *trainer*. Learning the principles, the theory, then trying it actually gets you good at timing, focussing on the Good Bits, etc. I have had great success in teaching people(my young kids included) to be effective trainers through teaching them to c/t.
         
        11-27-2010, 03:42 AM
      #15
    Foal
    Thanks

    Could be a dvd of karin pryor, but she was even not the one who made it populair. I think it was the baileys, who even did train ainimals for movies and did a lot of research.
    But clickertraining was used long before that.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by loosie    
    But I don't agree with the second comment above. Of course, the better your training skills, the easier it is, but I don't think you have to be good at it to make it work at all. T.

    Ofcourse, training with PR is always e good way to make sure the subjects tries even harder and to be able to see the good thinks that happen and not focus on the things you don't want, is just about thinking in the good direktion and something everybody can do and everybody can learn from

    However.... in my opinion, with training horses, you should know what you're are doing, becourse its it very very easy, nog beeing full aware about the impact from what you're doing, to learn a horse behaviour you don't want.
    For exemple.... you want your horse to target. You let him touch the target, click and reward. Than you take a goody and the horse is already grabbing for it, ears pinned back. Do this a copple of times and the horse has learned that grabbing in you're pocket is the bridge to jump at you with his ears pinned back. And at the moment you get angry becourse the horse has no respekt and grab in you pocket and may decide not to give the goody or maybe even smak the horse, the horse can get frustrated,. And some horses even angry.
    Becourse they don't understand. In you're eyes, the horse was unrespektfull, but in the eyes of the horse, jumping at you with ears pinned back on the sign 'hand in the pocket' was reinforced and should be reinforced if he repetes this behaviour. If not.... the horse will try this behaviour even harder, jumping a little more on top of you, looking angry, grabbing at goody.s

    And then people say... its not suiteble for my horse, becourse he gets agressive around goodys or pushy.
    They don't realise that its something they have learned there horse themselfs.

    And that's just a simple example from what I mean. If you don't know how it works and that a horse , starting to participate, can reconise everything as a cue and if rewarded by an owner not aware of that or not paying attention, it could become a problem.

    Now a days learning a horse to rear is very populair among young girls. Most dangerous problems coming from that becourse they are not aware that the horse needs to learn basics and that a horse has to learn about cues and performing only on cue.

    Lots of people, starting clickertraining, will face problems, not beeing aware how unbelievly fast a horse can learn and notice every movement of your body and reinforcement on the wrong moment can create problems.

    That's why I thing you should know how it works, how a horse learns, what horses behaviour is and the principles of reinforcement, setting behaviour on cue, chainbehaviour and so on.

    It maybe les importend training a dog, cat, chicken or goldfish. Becourse its not a big deal when you do things wrong and they get a little frustrated.
    But horses are between 600 en 1000 kilo's and can get dangerous.
    I thing with horses you really should know what you're doing and beeing able read there body language
         
        11-27-2010, 08:34 PM
      #16
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by liljebo    
    However.... in my opinion, with training horses, you should know what you're are doing, becourse its it very very easy, nog beeing full aware about the impact from what you're doing, to learn a horse behaviour you don't want.
    Yes, I agree thoroughly that it's very important to understand the theory first, or else you're more likely to end up with the sort of scenario you've given. What I meant is that *so long as you understand what you're doing*, I think it's not such a problem if you're a beginner at it.

    Quote:
    not beeing aware how unbelievly fast a horse can learn and notice every movement of your body and reinforcement on the wrong moment can create problems.
    Yes, I think that's why people blame stuff like that on c/t - because it's vastly more effective at teaching/strengthening behaviours than many other methods. Therefore it's just as easy & quick to teach the Wrong behaviours if you're not paying attention or don't understand the principles of learning.

    Quote:
    It maybe les importend training a dog, cat, chicken or goldfish. Becourse its not a big deal when you do things wrong and they get a little frustrated.
    Yes, I think that's part of the reason the Baileys advise learning to train a chicken or such is a great place to start - because it is safe regardless of mistakes. But it also emphasises the effectiveness of +R & the 'side effects' of -R & punishment, which don't work very well at all on chickens & many other animals. ...Perhaps that's where the idea of 'bird brained' comes from, because in using +R I have come to the conclusion that birds are not at all slow to catch on - I've trained chickens, ducks, geese and magpies.
         
        11-28-2010, 04:11 AM
      #17
    Foal
    Loosie and Liljebo, I would really appreciate it if you could point me in the direction of some good websites and/or books about clicker training? Would love to learn more about it!
    Posted via Mobile Device
         
        11-28-2010, 06:19 PM
      #18
    Trained
    Karen Pryor Clickertraining
    http://www.crisny.org/users/kurlanda/
    ClickRyder, Clicker Training for Horses
    ClickerSolutions Home

    There are many more sites & resources too, and Karen Pryor's book "Don't Shoot The Dog"(not a dog book) is a fantastic little book that I reckon every animal owner(whether they're into +R, c/t or otherwise) should read!
         
        11-29-2010, 04:02 AM
      #19
    Foal
    Loosie, I think we agree about clickertraining, reading you're commends.

    Munchk.... loosie allready did recommend some
    I could also recommend
    Hart's Horsemanship: Horse trainer Ben Hart's equine behaviour and training website.
    TheClickerCenter.com - Horse Clicker Training (really great edication material, imo)
    index
         

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    clicker training, ground manners, ground work

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