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Clicker Training: Challenge Accepted

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        06-28-2013, 12:24 AM
      #171
    Showing
    Punk, you are recognizing that when she's snorting at something she is not focused on you. Want to know a good way to make a horse snorty and spooky? By looking at what it is snorting at or spooking at.
         
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        06-28-2013, 08:31 AM
      #172
    Started
    Jillybean- thank you so much those are all great ideas. Your right working with her mat probaby will help a lot! I like the mystery target too :P great ideas!!
    I've tried the lunging thing with many things for her, like the first time I had to get her in her stall, we spent almost 3 hours lunging, yielding and backing with no results. I don't doubt it works I have used it for many horses, but I find with this horse it just wont work. I think its a mix of two things, if she's nervous lunging her only upsets her and gets her more worked up. If I tried to bring her someplace she's uncomfortable and lunge her at just a walk or trot, she'd most likely bolt. I think she also connects the dots wrongly, she connects being near the door (for instance) with having to work, not connecting that if she goes through it she won't have too anymore.


    Saddlebag, yes I'm well aware that she's not paying attention to me, I'm trying to find ways to bring her focus back to me when I loose it, without force because force usually leads to her being more reactive.
         
        06-28-2013, 09:04 AM
      #173
    Foal
    This whole clicker thing and constant treats boggles my mind. Wouldn't you want your horse to work for you and not food? Horses are simple minded. The key to making them do what you want is trust, keep their feet moving, and pressure. When they stop moving is when they think of all the bad things. For instance, with this horse, I would move her foward then release pressure by moving her back. Repeat until she goes where you want, then keep doing it for longer periods of time. What I do is when they have given me a good session of time then reward with a few treats as they stand quiet. The thing is with clickers and treats they are not always around, therefore I would want my horse to work for me. Just a thought.
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        06-28-2013, 09:21 AM
      #174
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lovemylilly    
    This whole clicker thing and constant treats boggles my mind. Wouldn't you want your horse to work for you and not food? Horses are simple minded. The key to making them do what you want is trust, keep their feet moving, and pressure. When they stop moving is when they think of all the bad things. For instance, with this horse, I would move her foward then release pressure by moving her back. Repeat until she goes where you want, then keep doing it for longer periods of time. What I do is when they have given me a good session of time then reward with a few treats as they stand quiet. The thing is with clickers and treats they are not always around, therefore I would want my horse to work for me. Just a thought.
    Posted via Mobile Device
    I realize that there was a lot of detailed posts on the original page, but they explain a lot of these common concerns people have with clicker training. Since it would get repetitive to try and explain it all again, I will keep this short, simple and sweet.

    The thing with hoof picks and halters is that they seem to disappear all the time. Does that stop me from using them? No. The clicker and my treat bag are just tack that I use daily. And, since I've been so successful with my horse and have been able to use minimal pressure with huge results, CT has actually cut down on all the tack I have to lug around because I don't even bother with a bridle, saddle, or pad and just go bareback and in a halter. I simply don't need anything else at this point.

    As for making your horse work for you - ours do. The click and treat is mainly used when teaching new behaviors. It's to give an affirmative and clear "yes" that the horse understand rather than ten "no's" that takes repetition for the horse to figure out when the release of pressure comes. Personally, I feel that both methods work best when combined with one another. I use pressure and apply the minimum amount to get my point across, then click and treat when my horse figures out what I want. Using multiple methods and clarifying when you're saying "yes" is not only motivating for the horse, but also faster. If you read my last post, my 3-year-old horse that's not even "green broke" really learned how to back in less than 5 minutes because he clearly understood what I was asking, and is now backing across the arena at moderate speed (and, I forgot to mention, his head is DOWN). Moreover, most of what I've done has been done through shaping on the ground without any pressure, so and by doing so I've effectively taught my horse to give his head without ever needing to pull on his face.

    The thing is that the release of pressure just simply isn't as rewarding for a horse nor does it expand the possibilities as much as CT. They're working for you to let them be comfortable and leave them alone. It would be like me poking you in the ribs until you turned the right direction, and it would take quite a few trials of you swatting at my finger, asking me to stop, etc. before you figured out all you have to do is turn. Wouldn't it be much more pleasant if I just applied light pressure, and you knew that you were supposed to figure out something to do in response, and when you turn around I told you "yes!"?

    Oh and, once they understand what the new cue and behavior is, the click and treat is phased out. My horse works for me because he knows that's what I expect and, when we're not training, I don't bother too much about the clicker nor treats because I expect him to listen and behave appropriately without it.
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        06-28-2013, 09:25 AM
      #175
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lovemylilly    
    This whole clicker thing and constant treats boggles my mind. Wouldn't you want your horse to work for you and not food? Horses are simple minded. The key to making them do what you want is trust, keep their feet moving, and pressure. When they stop moving is when they think of all the bad things. For instance, with this horse, I would move her foward then release pressure by moving her back. Repeat until she goes where you want, then keep doing it for longer periods of time. What I do is when they have given me a good session of time then reward with a few treats as they stand quiet. The thing is with clickers and treats they are not always around, therefore I would want my horse to work for me. Just a thought.
    Posted via Mobile Device
    Just a comment: The Natural Horsemanship Training section is not a section to debate the merits or validity of Clicker Training (this thread in particular). Everyone has methods that work for them, and you make some good suggestions, but please remember that this is a CT thread in the Natural Horsemanship Training section so be careful that some comments may come across as such. I would also encourage you to read the entire thread (I know it's lengthy haha) as jillybean19 does a fantastic job of explaining the psychology behind CT and how you do not actually need to click and treat continuously (she addresses your concern in particular). I had similar thinking as you before I started doing CT research (this thread is an excellent resource) and I'd encourage you to explore it further :)
    jillybean19, jaydee and PunksTank like this.
         
        06-28-2013, 09:28 AM
      #176
    Started
    Your not wrong lilly, but you have a different train of thought. The goal in any training method is fora horse to willingly follow your cues. With CT the treats don't last forever, I feel like maybe you haven't read any of the first few pages of this thread? It's explained better than I could about how using treats is a tool, just like any other and has to be used as one. And how the use of treats is euther weaned off or the skills is built up. My horse no longer gets a treat for backing up one step, she needs to back up until I say stop now. Now that she does this I can wean the treats off or just use them because I can. My pony no longer gets treats for touching his ball, now he needs to kick it. He no longer gets treats for touching a cone he has to touch the one I ask. Each skill is built off the last.
    Now the reason I don't rely completely on pressure and release is because of a few things really. First being, I don't think horses are such simple beasts, I believe they are intelligent and capable of much more than people give them credit for. I don't believe horses are just obliged to work for us, to obey our every whilm. I DO believe they MUST always have their manners about them, but my opinion is that they weren't put here to blindly serve us, I like to make them want it as much as I do and food encourages this. And lastly pressure did not work for this horse. I have been trained in traditional horsemanship all my life, when I got my first horse I started learning about natural horsemanship. If you read back in the thread you'll see the whole story. But to make it short, your idea of bringing her forward than backwards is what I started with in the beginning when her fears first appeared. But forward never happened, like I mentioned in my last post 3 hours of lunging, backing and yielding her wouldnt make her go into her new stall. It finally took one person holding her in and me whipping her from behind to get her to take that final step and believe me that day will never come again.
    When this horse is afraid of something no amount of pressure outside of serious violence will get her to go toward it. I won't resort to that when I have other options.

    I do hope you go back and read the first few pages, then maybe some of your questions wilk be better answered, I don't know psychology as well as Jillybean does.
         
        06-28-2013, 09:34 AM
      #177
    Started
    One last thing, the reason I love CT is because it teaches my horse to work toward something, not away from it. For example, if I want to move my horse forward with CT I'll use a target that they work toward, whereas wjth other styles of training I need slme sort of pressure from behind (behind their poll or their butt) to make them move. I like to see my horse work to something, not away from it. But that's just my opinion.
         
        06-28-2013, 09:35 AM
      #178
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by klkavich    
    Just a comment: The Natural Horsemanship Training section is not a section to debate the merits or validity of Clicker Training (this thread in particular). Everyone has methods that work for them, and you make some good suggestions, but please remember that this is a CT thread in the Natural Horsemanship Training section so be careful that some comments may come across as such. I would also encourage you to read the entire thread (I know it's lengthy haha) as jillybean19 does a fantastic job of explaining the psychology behind CT and how you do not actually need to click and treat continuously (she addresses your concern in particular). I had similar thinking as you before I started doing CT research (this thread is an excellent resource) and I'd encourage you to explore it further :)
    Yes, thank you :) The purpose of this thread is to demonstrate how and why we use clicker training through the ultimate response: the examples of our own horses. It's a show rather than tell method of answering the questions of those who may be critical or just curious about CT. I know it works for my horse and have been amazed by the results. I took the bait of your post because I felt like it might need to be revisited as I'm sure there are those who didn't sift through all the original posts to find the answers to the questions people commonly have, like yours.

    Should you have further questions after reading the first few pages of the thread, feel free to ask :) Should you like to debate the merits of CT, feel free to start another thread, but don't be surprised if we stick to demonstrating what we can do with our horses rather than trying to convince you of it.
    PunksTank and klkavich like this.
         
        06-28-2013, 09:43 AM
      #179
    Started
    I'm sorry if my one horse who's having troubles right now is making CT look bad as a whole, maybe others could post up videos of their good work? It would be great to see everyones progress with their horses :)
         
        06-28-2013, 09:43 AM
      #180
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by PunksTank    
    Jillybean- thank you so much those are all great ideas. Your right working with her mat probaby will help a lot! I like the mystery target too :P great ideas!!
    I've tried the lunging thing with many things for her, like the first time I had to get her in her stall, we spent almost 3 hours lunging, yielding and backing with no results. I don't doubt it works I have used it for many horses, but I find with this horse it just wont work. I think its a mix of two things, if she's nervous lunging her only upsets her and gets her more worked up. If I tried to bring her someplace she's uncomfortable and lunge her at just a walk or trot, she'd most likely bolt. I think she also connects the dots wrongly, she connects being near the door (for instance) with having to work, not connecting that if she goes through it she won't have too anymore.
    I figured as much :( Snickers was like that, though not with so many fears. I think you get the concept, though, of working on something different and achieving two goals at the same time. Like I said, just get creative. You know her better than anyone else and so I'm sure you'll come up with something :) However, I would keep in mind the phrase that "an idle mind is the devil's workshop" - even in a horse. I imagine that she may be working herself up in her head when you're giving her time to relax. Maybe relaxation just isn't relaxing, but rather a time that she is allowed to stop thinking about the task at hand and start thinking about her fears?

    I don't know if relaxation is something that can really be taught beyond asking the horse to put their head down. The longer I wait to click with Flash, the more focused he gets on earning the click. In fact, after giving him a "jackpot" and moving out of the arena, he walked up to the fence a few feet behind me, stood, looking expectantly for a minute, then stuck his head down and backed up about 15 feet just because he wanted to DO something! His mind is always at work.
    PunksTank likes this.
         

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