Clicker Training: Challenge Accepted - Page 4
 
 

       The Horse Forum > Training Horses > Horse Training

Clicker Training: Challenge Accepted

This is a discussion on Clicker Training: Challenge Accepted within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category
  • My clicker trained horse bucked me of

Like Tree297Likes

 
LinkBack Thread Tools
    02-14-2013, 05:46 PM
  #31
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanstrom Horses    
Ok. So, I visited your blog jillybean, and I saw some pictures of your horse trying to buck you off. How will you go about fixing that with clicker training?
I'm going to avoid being stupid and thinking I can get on a 2 1/2 year old horse that hasn't been worked with for 4 months and wasn't hardly even green broke before that :)

If you read the very first post of this thread, you'll see that I'm taking a few steps back and starting from (almost) square one like I should have haha.
     
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
    02-14-2013, 05:48 PM
  #32
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by jillybean19    
I'm going to avoid being stupid and thinking I can get on a 2 1/2 year old horse that hasn't been worked with for 4 months and wasn't hardly even green broke before that :)

If you read the very first post of this thread, you'll see that I'm taking a few steps back and starting from (almost) square one like I should have haha.
Ok. Can you fix a horse that bucks with clicker training? All horses buck at least once in their life, it's just their nature. How would you, in your methods, go about fixing that?
     
    02-14-2013, 06:06 PM
  #33
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanstrom Horses    
Ok. Can you fix a horse that bucks with clicker training? All horses buck at least once in their life, it's just their nature. How would you, in your methods, go about fixing that?
I'm not a clicker training purist meaning that I don't reject other methods but rather use the clicker to enhance them. Usually, I will use the pressure and release method to guide my horse to what I want him to do, and the click and treat when he does it. (However, I always start with the "final cue" in mind - such as giving him the chance to back up to only the verbal cue before I apply pressure since I eventually want him to respond to only the verbal cue.) Along those same lines, I will also tell the horse "no" when necessary, such as when a horse bucks. If the horse isn't doing what I want him to, he simply doesn't get a click or treat and I would work with him like "normal" until he does something to earn the click and treat again. In the big picture, he knows that doing what I ask earns him a click and treat and disobedience earns him nothing or maybe even a punishment. That takes away any motivation he might have to buck.

If I do my ground work right, he will know what to expect before I even get on and there shouldn't be any confusion about what I'm asking. I plan to teach him nearly all his cues from the ground before I climb on again. This is no different than any other trainer that does solid ground work before getting on - except that I'm using a clicker as a tool along with everything else. However, like I noted above, there will likely be little to no motivation to buck, especially after he learns he won't get anything he wants from it, and he'd much rather just do what I'm asking to get a click and treat .

(That's what happened last year when I was working with him, by the way. As long as his little colt mind was being regularly worked, he never offered to buck once and we actually went to a big trail riding event for Halloween and he did better than the veteran horses - without the clicker!)
     
    02-14-2013, 06:12 PM
  #34
Yearling
You'll find that a lot of people who do clicker training correctly have excited and willing attitudes and wouldn't want to buck in the first place other than maybe to "play" - which is what my boy is still doing quite often. We'll be in the arena doing work at liberty and he just gets so excited he takes off bucking and farting, then comes running back to me to play more "games" and earn clicks and treats! To me, this doesn't sound like a horse that would regularly try to buck you off, though I will need to make sure he's got his wiggles out when we do get back to riding. If his behavior does become and issue and the excited bucks don't go away (I'm positive it's just his age), then I'll have to address that with a little less tolerance for baby behavior. He NEVER does this on a lead, however - I took care of any excited hops on a lead almost as soon as I got him in November 2010 with a good smack across the chest and chasing him out of my space. He knows better now than to do anything silly in my space or while on a rope.
     
    02-14-2013, 06:26 PM
  #35
Yearling
Ok, thanks! I was just curious to see if there was a specific method or not :)
     
    02-14-2013, 07:13 PM
  #36
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanstrom Horses    
Ok, thanks! I was just curious to see if there was a specific method or not :)
To be honest, clicker training gives us a tool that allows us to adapt our methods. At the heart and soul of clicker training is simply communicating a "yes" signal to the horse by means of a "marker" (the click that allows us flexibility and accuracy with our reinforcements) and a reinforcer (the treat). Then, you create a "chain" of behaviors that starts with baby steps and steadily gets a horse closer and closer to the ultimate behavior goal. Beyond that, each clicker trainer might approach training specific behaviors differently. In fact, I take different approaches with my two horses for the same behavior. With Flash, my clicker-trained colt, I taught him to lower his head by using a target on the ground and pointing at it. With Snickers, my endurance horse that I don't use clicker training with very often (at least so far), I taught him to lower his head by applying poll pressure. There are various books and personal examples of how a clicker trainer approached a specific behavior, but we're often all a little (or very!) different in the steps we take and there isn't a prescribed way to approach it.

Personally, I think that's the beauty of clicker training. Since we have the added ability to say "yes" in addition to "no", we can shape certain behaviors that would be very difficult with pressure alone and we are also able to connect those behaviors to cues that don't require any pressure at all. PunksTank kind of touched on this when they mentioned why clicker training is commonly associated with tricks - there's really no other way to teach some of these things! For instance, it would be very difficult to teach a horse to retrieve something for you by using pressure. However, clicker training isn't limited to tricks - you can teach anything you want to through clicker training and so I use it to enhance my regular training and it enables me to easily teach more useful things like standing completely still as I move around my horse doing whatever it is I'm doing. As far as riding goes, I'm going to teach my horse from day one to move off a leg cue rather than a a rein cue, made possible by associating the leg cue with a click and treat ever time the horse moves away from it. When we started this last fall, he was turning off only a leg cue within a day. Without clicker training, I would have to do direct reining first and then use direct reining to teach the horse to associate the leg cue with turning.
     
    02-14-2013, 09:09 PM
  #37
Started
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanstrom Horses    
Ok. So, I visited your blog jillybean, and I saw some pictures of your horse trying to buck you off. How will you go about fixing that with clicker training?
JillyBean did a great job explaining, Clicker training can really only be used to say "Yes" so rather than teaching them not to do something, we teach them what we'd prefer they do. My horse who used to kick walls for food, now only gets food if she's standing politely - wall kicking is ignored (or if it's extensive she gets a swift butt-kicking) - wall kicking is almost completely eliminated now.

I wanted to add my experience I was able to teach a horse not to buck with CT. The horse always bucked when asked for an upward transition, no pain issues found. It was always an attitude thing, because he would trot on if you kept at him. Because it was a consistent response of him bucking I was able to reinforce with a "Yes" when he didn't buck. This wouldn't have worked if he bucked just for the heck of it whenever he wanted - but because it always happened when asking for upward transitions I was able to pinpoint and reward when he didn't buck. Each time I would ask him for a trot, if he didn't buck I would click right during the smooth transition and after a few trot steps I'd slow back down and treat him. I gradually increased the number of trot steps until he no longer bucked and would trot until I was ready for him to stop. Then we repeated the same for trot-canter transitions, which really only needed a few times to work out.

Also I wanted to mention what happened with me today! I started 2 new horses in their Clicker Training, both rescues, one is a 4 month old colt - he figured out targetting in less than 5 minutes, it was incredible! He always has issues focusing, when learning to lead he would get distracted easy and flap around and it took great force and constant corrections just to keep his attention. So I decided to start with CT - I held his attention for a good 20 minutes, he never once got distracted from me, even when one of the kids brought his mom into the next paddock over to work with her some. I stopped after 20 only because I was out of food and wanted to stop while I was ahead. I had him targetting my hand and worked on touching him behind his shoulder. He loves to be scratched on his chest but will not allow anyone to touch behind his shoulder, today I was able to reach up to his girth area with him calm.

I also started working with a mini, she has serious dental problems and will never be able to eat solid food (she has too many teeth for her face and the vet removed some but it's still very difficult for her to eat). She's just recently been sent back to our rescue she was mildly neglected at her previous home and because eating hurt her she didn't enjoy it. She eats when she's hungry, but she's very nervous about it - now she's getting all her food soaked and is slowly getting more comfortable eating again. So when I attempted to hand-feed her she was very tentative. I was using little peach cubes, she decided she didn't like them, so I tried grapes - then sweet tarts - but she just wouldn't take food out of my hand. Finally I soaked up some hay stretcher for her and within just a few minutes I had her eating from my hand. Once she realized feed from my hands was safe to eat she was very eager to please. She learned to target my hand and we worked a bit on backing up. :)
So 2 very successful CT lessons today!
Skyseternalangel likes this.
     
    02-14-2013, 09:39 PM
  #38
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by PunksTank    
JillyBean did a great job explaining, Clicker training can really only be used to say "Yes" so rather than teaching them not to do something, we teach them what we'd prefer they do.
There's the simple elegance I need to learn :) This is exactly what I meant by everything I wrote!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PunksTank    
My horse who used to kick walls for food, now only gets food if she's standing politely - wall kicking is ignored (or if it's extensive she gets a swift butt-kicking) - wall kicking is almost completely eliminated now.

I wanted to add my experience I was able to teach a horse not to buck with CT. The horse always bucked when asked for an upward transition, no pain issues found. It was always an attitude thing, because he would trot on if you kept at him. Because it was a consistent response of him bucking I was able to reinforce with a "Yes" when he didn't buck. This wouldn't have worked if he bucked just for the heck of it whenever he wanted - but because it always happened when asking for upward transitions I was able to pinpoint and reward when he didn't buck. Each time I would ask him for a trot, if he didn't buck I would click right during the smooth transition and after a few trot steps I'd slow back down and treat him. I gradually increased the number of trot steps until he no longer bucked and would trot until I was ready for him to stop. Then we repeated the same for trot-canter transitions, which really only needed a few times to work out.
Thanks for sharing! This was really interesting and beneficial to read! Honestly, while I understand the the what and why behind everything, I think you've got a better grasp on how to put it into practice. I really appreciate the input!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PunksTank    
Also I wanted to mention what happened with me today! I started 2 new horses in their Clicker Training, both rescues, one is a 4 month old colt - he figured out targetting in less than 5 minutes, it was incredible! He always has issues focusing, when learning to lead he would get distracted easy and flap around and it took great force and constant corrections just to keep his attention. So I decided to start with CT - I held his attention for a good 20 minutes, he never once got distracted from me, even when one of the kids brought his mom into the next paddock over to work with her some. I stopped after 20 only because I was out of food and wanted to stop while I was ahead. I had him targetting my hand and worked on touching him behind his shoulder. He loves to be scratched on his chest but will not allow anyone to touch behind his shoulder, today I was able to reach up to his girth area with him calm.

I also started working with a mini, she has serious dental problems and will never be able to eat solid food (she has too many teeth for her face and the vet removed some but it's still very difficult for her to eat). She's just recently been sent back to our rescue she was mildly neglected at her previous home and because eating hurt her she didn't enjoy it. She eats when she's hungry, but she's very nervous about it - now she's getting all her food soaked and is slowly getting more comfortable eating again. So when I attempted to hand-feed her she was very tentative. I was using little peach cubes, she decided she didn't like them, so I tried grapes - then sweet tarts - but she just wouldn't take food out of my hand. Finally I soaked up some hay stretcher for her and within just a few minutes I had her eating from my hand. Once she realized feed from my hands was safe to eat she was very eager to please. She learned to target my hand and we worked a bit on backing up. :)
So 2 very successful CT lessons today!
Congrats! You have some special circumstances to overcome, so I love hearing about what you're doing! Keep up the good work!
     
    02-14-2013, 10:03 PM
  #39
Yearling
Taking Breaks

Today I had an "Aha!" moment. Flash was mostly backing up with just the verbal cue, though I had to restrain myself from trying to speed him up before the cue was solid.

I figured out something I was doing to sabotage any learning we were doing: switching activities. Flash was getting bored and distracted, wandering off and playing my games on his time, so I turned this into a "come here" game. While I was getting some progress with both the backing up and "come here" game, I realized what I needed to do more was just to stop. After a while, I decided I really just needed to find a good stopping place and then give Flash a break. I had been trying to do this by switching to brushing him and then going back, but since I was still interacting with him and he was doing different things, he never had real processing time for anything, even when we switched to brushing.

So, I backed him up one or two more times and then gave him an extra treat and walked away. Honestly, it was kind of hard to do because I wanted to keep doing it since he'd done it so well that last time, but walking away was the best thing I could have done.

I had to make some stuff up to do haha. I fed my boarder's horses for her, then went to look for more of Flash's teeth in the tire feeder. As luck would have it, this turned into a great opportunity to train my other horse, who can be very stand-offish when I come to the pasture and will sometimes turn away from me and/or walk away. However, I'm positive that this is all mind games with him. Due to a lot of different things, I don't think he cares about being caught but rather wants attention and wants to play a catching "game" with me. For instance, when I ignore him and go to my other horse, he'll come and see what's going on and lets himself be caught then. This is exactly what happened today: I was inside the tire feeder squatting down looking for teeth, and all the sudden Snickers's face was in mine! He was sniffing me and looking around in the tire with me, interested in what the heck I was doing and why I wasn't giving him attention. When I looked up at him, he even put his muzzle on my cheek and nuzzled me. He's not a touchy-feely horse, so this "intimate" moment with him wasn't something I would take for granted. I rubbed him, then went back to looking for teeth, and then rubbed him again since he was still watching and touching me. Eventually, I stood up and stepped out of the tire and gave him a big hug and rub up and down his his neck. Then, to experiment, I went to another feeder that's upside down and just sat on it looking at the ground. He stood and watched me the entire time, and, after a few moments, came over! He got another big hug and rub. We did this one more time except I went and stood in a random spot in the pasture, and he came up to me again! Yay! So now I finally know what I'm going to do during my breaks with Flash - chill out with Snickers and maybe even do some clicker training. I'm really excited about the relationships I'm building with both of my horses!

Anyway, after this, I went back to the arena and asked Flash to back up two or three times, which he did very well with just the verbal cue. He was all ready to work again after being left alone for a bit and I could sense an attitude and attention change between when I'd walked away before and now. After a few good backs, decided to call it a day! I took Flash back to the pasture, but asked him to stop and back up every now and then, which he did really well given that there were a lot of distractions, including Snickers coming up to him when we were in the pasture and I wanted Flash to back up so I could take his later off. I was really proud of Flash for backing up each time! He's really getting it! I can't wait to see how our progress improves now that I'm going to be chopping our lessons up into mini-lessons so he continues to want to do clicker training and not trying to take breaks when he sees fit, as well as sticking to only one thing at a time!
Skyseternalangel likes this.
     
    02-14-2013, 11:27 PM
  #40
Started
This happens to me too sometimes. One thing doesn't go as planned so I do a bunch of different things and accomplish very little. I think we humans need to walk into the situation with a clear goal in mind. "Today Flash is going to back up 3 steps" you can add and subtract in the moment depending on how it's recieved. If he's not getting it sticking to a step or two might be all you get - if he figures it out fast then expand on it, backing straighter or faster or calmer or more steps. But changing the lesson midway I can imagine would be confusibg unless you clearly change tasks. So switching from a cone target to backing up.

Also, I get you want to work at liberty but I think a 2 and a hald year old needs a little more focus than that. My 2 and a half year old can barely contain himself - I couldn't imagine keeping his focus at liberty until the skills are learned. Perhaps use a lunge line so he has freedom to come and go, but you can pull him back when he's just being bratty. Just because this is a fun lesson and something he should want, doesn't mean he should choose when it starts and ends. Work with him on lead, when he starts getting disengaged ask a few more solid skils and let him be. Go back later. Theres no need for him to wonder away just cause he's bored. At least that's what I do! :P

Also why don't you use CT for your other horse? When I work with the rescues I go between the 3 I'm currently working with by the time I'm done with the 3rd the first is eager for more and has processed what we did last. Sounds like Snikers could benefit from CT too if he's not the eager type, it may help motivate him :)

And thank you for your comment before :) I think I just know this stuff from working with so many different horses wuth different goals. :P you and Flasg seem to be coming along well too! But I certainky don't know it all!!
jillybean19 likes this.
     

Quick Reply
Please help keep the Horse Forum enjoyable by reporting rude posts.
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the The Horse Forum forums, you must first register.

Already have a Horse Forum account?
Members are allowed only one account per person at the Horse Forum, so if you've made an account here in the past you'll need to continue using that account. Please do not create a new account or you may lose access to the Horse Forum. If you need help recovering your existing account, please Contact Us. We'll be glad to help!

New to the Horse Forum?
Please choose a username you will be satisfied with using for the duration of your membership at the Horse Forum. We do not change members' usernames upon request because that would make it difficult for everyone to keep track of who is who on the forum. For that reason, please do not incorporate your horse's name into your username so that you are not stuck with a username related to a horse you may no longer have some day, or use any other username you may no longer identify with or care for in the future.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.


Old Thread Warning
This thread is more than 90 days old. When a thread is this old, it is often better to start a new thread rather than post to it. However, If you feel you have something of value to add to this particular thread, you can do so by checking the box below before submitting your post.

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Set of Horse training Books- clicker training! jklfarm Tack and Equipment Classifieds 1 12-22-2012 06:13 PM
What do YOU think of clicker training Bribrigirl111 Horse Training 93 08-31-2012 04:18 AM
Clicker training Semiellia Horse Training 22 06-06-2012 03:55 AM
clicker training? MarleyandEllie Horse Training 18 11-29-2010 05:02 AM
Clicker Training??? BluMagic Horse Training 4 01-21-2008 03:07 PM



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:24 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0