Clicker Training/EndoStick
 
 

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Clicker Training/EndoStick

This is a discussion on Clicker Training/EndoStick within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category
  • Make an endostick
  • Making an endostick

 
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    01-13-2011, 09:22 PM
  #1
Weanling
Clicker Training/EndoStick

While researching positive training methods, aka occulant training, I kept thinking "But what about HORSES?"

It made sense that it could work for on the ground, and maybe in the saddle if the trainer knows how to do it properly. But problem horses? No way. There's no possible way someone with a clicker and a sharp mind could get a horse to stop trying to kick you in the face.

While looking for hard evidence to my point (I'm writing a paper on the subject), I found this. Problem Horses - Rapture Ridge Equestrian Center (Don't bother reading the whole thing unless you want to. I just skimmed. The spacing is terrible and its really long anyway.)
Endostick training?? That sounds like BS to me. She claims farther down that she got horses that wanted to hurt her to stop simply by tapping them in really specific places. She CLAIMS it works. I have found no other articles concerning training a problem horse without force.

I also found on Ultimate Dressage the following quote by a user:
*A comment on a video posted showing this woman training kids to ride using the sticks* "Remember going to the doc and being hit in the knee with a rubber mallet? You kick. Now, would that help a soccer player learn to kick his ball? A russian folkore dancer to dance? While this is no rubber mallet, it is still a form of reflexology and it does not teach the horse to listen to the rider and it does not teach the rider to communicate with his horse as a whole being. I guess that is much more difficult - It effectively remove the partnership out of riding."

Hmm. What do YOU think? And do you have any articles to back it up? I would loooove that.
     
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    01-13-2011, 09:53 PM
  #2
Weanling
I've never heard of endostick but I read a book about clicker training...I've always been intrigued but never tried it myself. Has anyone successfuly clicker trained a horse.
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    01-13-2011, 10:35 PM
  #3
Weanling
I forgot to mention that she also talks about how she rarely uses this one special Endostick...With a metal-like ball. If a horse is particularly dangerous she hits it between the eyes and on the tip of the nose (where the fragile bones are!) to sort of say "Hello? I'm trying to get you to do something here!"

I find this contradictory of her whole point...Its really silly.
     
    01-14-2011, 02:31 AM
  #4
Foal
Strangely enough, I've seen a women train her horse to go long and low, collect in a natural frame and extend on the lunge line just by using a rope halter and clicker training so horses can be trained with a clicker. Can everything be trained with a clicker? Maybe not but I've seen some amazing things done with clicker training and its inspired me to learn more about it and to try it with my mare.

However I think I'd like to get a dangerous horse to respect me before coming close enough to teach them that click = treat.
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    01-15-2011, 02:34 AM
  #5
Foal
I have seen endostick work well on all kind of horses, it not quite my thing... But was really cool see being done, and when its done right its really affective.

Check out paul Dufresne, he was the guy showing it at a weekend clinic I was at...
     
    01-15-2011, 07:38 PM
  #6
Foal
     
    01-15-2011, 07:54 PM
  #7
Weanling
I do not in any way doubt clicker training works. It obviously does. I'm just suspicious of these people working with dangerous horses with a clicker and a rubber stick. Hmmm.
     
    01-15-2011, 08:43 PM
  #8
Foal
I saw the Endostick at the 2010 World Equestrian games and it was really interesting and they never hurt the horses with the endostick. However, they do tap them with the sticks to release endorphins and get them to drop their heads. I have never heard of them aiming for the bony parts of the face. I have never used them only seen them and listened to the inventor.
     
    01-15-2011, 10:50 PM
  #9
Trained
Don't know anything at all about 'endostick' except for skimming your link - thought it was related to the 'endotap' method, which looks rather... dubious to say the least, but it seems to be different & more about pressure points & such, which can be largely sound principles IMO. However, as I said I know next to nothing about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tymer    
While researching positive training methods, aka occulant training, I kept thinking "But what about HORSES?"
I'm guessing you mean 'operant' training, aka behavioural training, which is not only positive. What about horses? Behavioural psychology is about the principles & 'laws' of learning that animals learn/behave by and is sound for all species. Of course each species has different motivations, but we all essentially learn in the same way and the principles of behavioural modification work across the board.

I find it interesting in having trained horses, dogs, cats, chooks... and used the same sort of principles with my kids(they're the hardest beasts to train!), that when learning & talking to others about it, that some people, if only having experienced it on one species sometimes doubt the effectiveness of use with other animals. I've heard dog people say it wouldn't work for horses, horse people say it wouldn't work for dogs, people say it's only effective on wild zoo animals... people using it on mentally disabled patients say it couldn't work on animals, only people...

Quote:
It made sense that it could work for on the ground, and maybe in the saddle if the trainer knows how to do it properly. But problem horses? No way. There's no possible way someone with a clicker and a sharp mind could get a horse to stop trying to kick you in the face.
Firstly, the clicker is but a handy tool for use in training. It is a 'bridging signal' to help the horse associate behaviour with positive reinforcement(reward). It is by no means necessary though and whatever original, short, sharp signal you choose will become effective. Dolphin trainers tend to use whistles. I tend to just use 'Good!', especially when riding, so I don't have my hands cluttered. As far as problem horses & stopping kicks to the face or such, I think you're looking at it too directly - as if the clicker is the trainer, the Answer or some such. Again the clicker is but a handy tool, as with food treats or such, it's the *principles* you learn & apply that are the important bits. Then you will learn how to modify their behaviour *and attitude* in order to *avoid* the aggression, rather than just reacting to it when it happens. I actually find using 'clicker training' principles especially valuable in working with 'aggressive' or 'rude' horses.

Quote:
it is still a form of reflexology and it does not teach the horse to listen to the rider and it does not teach the rider to communicate with his horse as a whole being.
Perhaps, like 'clicker training' IT does not train the horse, but it may be a useful tool to help a trainer?
     
    01-15-2011, 11:44 PM
  #10
Foal
[QUOTE=loosie;891301

Perhaps, like 'clicker training' IT does not train the horse, but it may be a useful tool to help a trainer?[/QUOTE]

That is exactly it, it teacher a trainer timing and feel... If you know about feel with working with a horse clicker training is pointless.. But to teach someone feel and timing its a great tool!
     

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