Originally Posted by barefoothooves
BRATTY horses are ones that get treats. Scared, abused or just not trained doesn't count as bratty to me.
... If it's too complex for the general public to do right, is it really that successful?
Re the word bratty, I agree that's not my term for a scared horse, but untrained or badly trained 'brats' are in the same boat IMO. I've been in the business of teaching horsemanship & 'dogmanship' for a while now and while I think getting a grasp on training skills IS complex and the general public(that I know) generally do make lots of mistakes(with a variety of methods), I've found c/t principles to be reasonably easy for people to get a grip on. Perhaps there are few good c/t teachers & many good conventional trainers around you.
As for postive/neg reinforcement...the cessation of a cue is not "negative" in my mind. Hitting/striking etc is because it can create fear oftentimes and horses that recieve "neg" reinforcement dont' want to be near you. However, cessation of a cue is POSITVE
Sorry, we're talking behavioural terminology. :roll: I may not have explained as I usually do, because I assumed from the thread topic that people would be on the same wavelength....
Positive Reinforcement(+R) is adding
Negative Reinforcement(-R) is removing
Positive Punishment(+P) is adding
Negative Punishment(-P) is removing
If I'm giving a scratch for a job well done, that's +R. If I'm releasing the pressure of a 'cue' that's -R, if I'm hitting the horse, locking him up, riding him, they may all be +P. If I'm removing or disallowing feed from a rude horse, that's -P.
And for the comparison to a human working. Yes, a nice "thank you" goes a long way (translation-good girl) but if my boss is nice when asking (cueing) I don't mind doing it at all-it's my job. I work for a paycheck that pays my housing/food/clothing costs, but horses ultimately are cared for overall so that's the tradeoff-their paycheck.
Now I know I was the one who brought up the human eg but I'm going to accuse you of anthropomorphising(hope you know what it means, as I don't know if I spelled it right
). That is, projecting purely human values, ways of thinking and morals onto another species.
I think 'thank you" is different to "good girl" because we are a verbal language species who have learned the meaning of the words explicitly & understand abstract concepts. We are also a species that seems to innately value recognition. To a horse, it's just noise that (hopefully) has been associated with desirable consequences.
That the horse should see his 'paycheck' regarding training as being looked after by the human is flawed. For one, the horse doesn't ask to be kept in confinement, worked and choose to rely on a human for everything.
Secondly, horses live 'in the moment' and are unable to think in abstract ideas such as linking current behaviours to past or future care. That is why it's so important to reinforce or punish *at the time of* the behaviour you want to effect.
but I never give him a bribe for that behavior. Just a "good dog" and he's content to do as I say. I might use a treat as a way to get him to posture a certain way
Sorry, my training in behavioural psych coming out again, :roll: but a bribe is something desirable offered ahead of a behaviour in order to make it more likely. In dog training it is generally called 'luring'. So you do indeed bribe your dog. Not that that's bad - it's a valid way of shaping behaviour, tho as you said, once the dog gets it, you quit with the treats, or else it becomes more of a bribe in the way people usually think of the word, which I agree doesn't work very well.