Coercive Trainin Equipment - Jim Wofford - Page 2
 
 

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Coercive Trainin Equipment - Jim Wofford

This is a discussion on Coercive Trainin Equipment - Jim Wofford within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category
  • Jim wofford side reins
  • Wofford on draw reins

 
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    03-05-2009, 12:30 AM
  #11
Trained
A flash is not a gadget. It's purpose is to keep the loose ring snaffle quiet, so as not to disrupt the contact. It is used incorrectly as a gadget to shut the horse's mouth and in the case of only using it when your horse is being hot. I don't see how a flash would keep a rider safe...

According to what you are saying MI, we should all be riding around bareback, naked, with nothing on the horse's head.
Olympians aren't all perfect. Yes some use gadgets, and it is to "get the job done", but the horses that they get up to International Grand Prix so quickly (by 9 or 10) usually only last a season or two and are then mentally and physically broken.

I am the most anti gadget person you will meet. I have spent thousands of dollars in vet bills correcting what draw reins, degouges, and other fun gadgets did to one of my old horse's spines, and it eventually ended up costing the horse it's career.

There are tools, and there are gadgets. A tool is something like a spur, or a bit. It refines the aids in order to make them invisible to the naked eye. Most tools can be mis-used, and this is when they become "gadgets", or just simply abusive. A gadget is something like a draw rein. It artificially takes place of something a rider would do, and attempts to "train" the horse to do something because the rider is too lazy to do it themselves.
A list of "tools": A saddle, a headstall (properly adjusted), bit(s) (appropriate to the level of the horse), spurs (of legal length and without sharpness), stirrups, a whip (not for beating, but touching. The whip is meant to touch and tap.), and certain variations of these things.
A list of "gadgets": Side reins, draw reins, degouge/chambon (all when used undersaddle), martingales, excessive bits, improperly adjusted headstalls, excessive spuring/kicking, excessive use of the whip, "sit tight", "stick-um" basically andything that straps the rider in of sticks them to the saddle, etc.. this list is largely incomplete.


MLK - Anky's horses have never halted for as long as I can remember :P And the reasons for the placings - politics.
     
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    03-05-2009, 01:07 AM
  #12
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~    
According to what you are saying MI, we should all be riding around bareback, naked,
Hmmmmmmmmmmm Steffen Peters in all his glory.
     
    03-05-2009, 02:48 AM
  #13
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spyder    
Hmmmmmmmmmmm Steffen Peters in all his glory.
Haha YES.
Too bad most male dressage riders are gay.. :P

ETA: And the ones that aren't are taken, DARN.
     
    03-05-2009, 03:39 AM
  #14
Yearling
I love you guys to pieces, lol. <3

I like the article but I agree with Anebel. The problem isn't with the equipment, it's with the training mentality. The article also seemed to suggest that the people who use these gadgets are all struggling in dressage--they're not. A lot of them are winning, and at high levels.

Sigh, what are you gonna' do? :(
     
    03-05-2009, 11:35 AM
  #15
Trained
Quote:
A flash is not a gadget. It's purpose is to keep the loose ring snaffle quiet, so as not to disrupt the contact. It is used incorrectly as a gadget to shut the horse's mouth and in the case of only using it when your horse is being hot. I don't see how a flash would keep a rider safe...
Right - but how many do you see using the flash with bits that are not loose rings? Many. You see them with Mikmars and Mylers and Full Cheeks and the list goes on.

Many are taught incorrectly - so many think "I'll clamp their mouth shut so the horse will not evade the bit, therefore I have more control"

It is a fact. I see it everywhere. Even I was taught that - until Dorothy Crowell, a CCI**** and CIC**** Olympic Eventer showed me otherwise.

There are many out there who think a martingale will teach a horse a headset - because we are being taught incorrectly.

Quote:
According to what you are saying MI, we should all be riding around bareback, naked, with nothing on the horse's head.
What Jim Wofford is saying - is that we should always go back to basics and the training scale so that we can remain with classical pricniples. Which means long term, systematic, prgoressive training that never disturbs the tranquility of the horse.

He stresses that a horse must be calm - which is the first factor to the training scale. If your horse is not calm, you have nothing else. The horse cannot learn anything when he is tense, and then the horse shows sings of that - so the rider turns to gadgets to hide it.

I don't know how many times I hear that "then lets ride bareback with no tack" that isn't the point - the point is, ride smart. Learn to ride with the training scale, before you cross that fine line of turning to gadgets.

Quote:
Most tools can be mis-used, and this is when they become "gadgets", or just simply abusive. A gadget is something like a draw rein. It artificially takes place of something a rider would do, and attempts to "train" the horse to do something because the rider is too lazy to do it themselves.
I dispise draw reins, and all that crap. It saddens me, and I whole heartedly agree that when I see riders using them - they are too lazy to ride properly using the training scale.

Impatience, wanting it now.

I agree with your list of gadgets - they are all "vices" to hide the riders incompentance or uneducation.

It falls back to our coaches - Uneducated Coaches, turning out Uneducated Riders.

It shoud ALWAYS be about the horse - NOT the rider.

I applaud Jim Wofford - he is who he is for a reason. And I look forward to more of his articles.
     
    03-05-2009, 02:58 PM
  #16
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIEventer    
Quote:
A flash is not a gadget. It's purpose is to keep the loose ring snaffle quiet, so as not to disrupt the contact. It is used incorrectly as a gadget to shut the horse's mouth and in the case of only using it when your horse is being hot. I don't see how a flash would keep a rider safe...
Right - but how many do you see using the flash with bits that are not loose rings? Many. You see them with Mikmars and Mylers and Full Cheeks and the list goes on.

What Jim Wofford is saying - is that we should always go back to basics and the training scale so that we can remain with classical pricniples. Which means long term, systematic, prgoressive training that never disturbs the tranquility of the horse.

He stresses that a horse must be calm - which is the first factor to the training scale. If your horse is not calm, you have nothing else. The horse cannot learn anything when he is tense, and then the horse shows sings of that - so the rider turns to gadgets to hide it.

I don't know how many times I hear that "then lets ride bareback with no tack" that isn't the point - the point is, ride smart. Learn to ride with the training scale, before you cross that fine line of turning to gadgets.
OK well if we're all in agreement, then why were flashes being called gadgets above? They are not detrimental to training when used correctly (as we both agree) but can be used incorrectl - doesn't make them gadgets.

And yes Jim Wofford is correct in saying this, and there are many people and trainers who shcool like this, and are rewarded in the ring for it. But on an international scale it does not happen. For some reason as soon as you hit the Olympics, WEG, etc... it is OK to go no holds barred on the training of any horse and just get it done. This is the mentality that we have to stop, the mentality that we must force the horse to train him and get him up the levels as quickly as possible. There is also a fine line between training at a good pace and just riding around too. We need to as riders and trainers always be evaluating ourselves, and if we are riding to our best ability and always be evaluating our training.
At least in my area, I know many trainers who turn to aggression to train horses, bigger spurs, longer whips and bigger bits. These are the same people, and their students, who refer to their horses as "cows" "dumbys" and other less nice terms because "the **** horse wouldn't do it". Where as the trainers who use a more wholistic approach in building a partnership with their horses are the ones more likely to be pleased with most rides, and blame themselves for the horse's wrong doings.
     
    03-05-2009, 03:07 PM
  #17
Trained
Quote:
OK well if we're all in agreement, then why were flashes being called gadgets above? They are not detrimental to training when used correctly (as we both agree) but can be used incorrectl - doesn't make them gadgets.
Jim Wofford does call them gadgets and quick fixes - he stresses that they can aid in that moment in time, but training does come to a halt when used.

I agree with him :)
     
    03-05-2009, 08:35 PM
  #18
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIEventer    
Jim Wofford does call them gadgets and quick fixes - he stresses that they can aid in that moment in time, but training does come to a halt when used.

I agree with him :)
I still fail to see how a correctly adjusted and used flash noseband "aids at a moment in time" and is a "quick fix". If being used properly, it does not restrict breathing, it does not prevent the horse from opening his mouth anymore than the correctly adjusted cavesson would, it does not tie the horse's face anywhere and as long as there aren't pointy bits of metal on the underside, it doesn't cause pain. It sits there and when the horse chews the bit softly it holds the ring of the snaffle quiet so it doesn't interupt the contact.
     
    03-05-2009, 11:56 PM
  #19
Started
Honestly, I see a ton of people riding in snaffles with no flash and their horses are completely fine. The bit isn't sliding around or anything, it's nicely in place. I ride in a snaffle and I don't use a flash and I've never had an issue. I don't see a need for a flash personally.
     
    03-06-2009, 12:05 AM
  #20
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spirithorse    
Honestly, I see a ton of people riding in snaffles with no flash and their horses are completely fine. The bit isn't sliding around or anything, it's nicely in place. I ride in a snaffle and I don't use a flash and I've never had an issue. I don't see a need for a flash personally.
Well I don't happen to use a flash although I have used it. My horse has a face/mouth that is well formed and he simply never fussed...ever. The Quarab I owned had a totally different profile and in fact could not even take a regulat broken snaffle type bit but had to have a mullen mouth with a dropped noseband. It depends on the horse so to arbitrary say that it isn't needed is as bad as saying it MUST be used.

Neither statement is correct.
     

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