Collected forward v.s. Soft face/breaking at poll v.s. Backing - Page 2
   

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Collected forward v.s. Soft face/breaking at poll v.s. Backing

This is a discussion on Collected forward v.s. Soft face/breaking at poll v.s. Backing within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category
  • Using your body to collect a horse

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    07-31-2012, 08:19 PM
  #11
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by katbalu    
So then would it be correct (or more correct) to say that I could collect my horse by holding my rein position steady, and push my horse into the bit pressure, rather than putting pressure on the reins and keeping leg pressure up?
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Still not quite. Plant your hand physically in the withers and do not move them. Your hands should not move relative to the horse - ie they are independent from the body and move with the horse, not with your body. Then we follow the training scale:
Rhythm - riding forward in a good balance
Relaxation - the horse begins to relax into the rhythm
Contact - the horse stretches to the bit and becomes "round"
Schwung - the energy from the hindlegs to the bit becomes a strong connection allowing the horse to really use his back
Straightness - the horse allows you to ride him on your line while bending his body, he becomes more supple and accepts all your aids
Collection - the horse takes aids from the seat (actually it is a lot like how bsms explained with weight shifting and balance) and his balance shifts over his hocks, the steps become more elevated and expressive, and shorter (but the "air time" does not change). With this his body compresses and he is able to coil like a spring of energy, making him quicker, more agile and more balanced. It is like running with your belly out versus running with your core engaged.

The whole shebang takes a year or so before you're kind of working on collection and after that the next 15+ years of the horse's training are focused on refining and refining the collection for ever and ever. At least in dressage.
     
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    07-31-2012, 08:26 PM
  #12
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by COWCHICK77    

And like said above collection is different, I ride them up into the bridle. Ride the horse from the back to the front. Use your seat and legs to drive him over the bit not your hands.

Gah! Dang it! I am having hell typing on my phone...

What I meant to say is, use your seat and legs to drive him over the bit. Just using your hands to pick up the bit doesn't create collection.

The best way I can I explain how it feels is like ocean waves. You can feel the energy come up from behind and travel through to the front.
     
    07-31-2012, 08:27 PM
  #13
Banned
Katbalu,

Let me try to unmuddy the waters a bit.

Anabel, and some of the other posters on this thread, are seeing "collection" and thinking you mean collection in the dressage sense, which takes years of systemic training to develop. I guessing that you're referring to collection in the same sense I would use "connection", something that's possible on a reasonably broke and reasonably fit horse, meaning that you ask the horse to move from back to front, move through it's back, and give slightly to contact with the bit, showing a little flexion at the poll.

So if that's what you mean, then yes, forward is key. If you don't have forward, when you add contact with the bit, you'll get a horse that hollows its back and slows down. With forward and relaxed, when you add contact, you should get a horse that's connected back to front. Flexing at the poll/giving to the contact is best taught, imo, separately, and from the ground, and before you attempt to ride the horse in a connected fashion.

HTH
     
    07-31-2012, 08:31 PM
  #14
Weanling
Maura, that is, infact, where I am coming from. My basic goal for the next while is just to work on having a horse with a soft yielding face and mind.
     
    07-31-2012, 08:37 PM
  #15
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by katbalu    
So vertical flexion at a stand still vs backing up has to do only with body position? Neutral body position for flex at a standstill, and the 'feet forward' position I would use when I stop for backing - and my hands would do the same in either scenario. Correct? I know I'm repeating things... ( brain.... Short circuit)
I think you are asking great questions! Plus I love reading others responses!
Basically, for me, that is how I do it.
I associate stopping with backing.
For example...
If I cue for a stop and and when he completes his stop and my body/leg position is the same, he needs to be backing up. If I cue the stop, he stops and I release the cues(neutral body) position he stands.
He needs to have his body in the same shape for the stop and the back. He should look like a boat. His hindquarters engaged underneath, his back rounded and his shoulders elevated.
     
    07-31-2012, 08:41 PM
  #16
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by COWCHICK77    
I think you are asking great questions! Plus I love reading others responses!
Basically, for me, that is how I do it.
I associate stopping with backing.
For example...
If I cue for a stop and and when he completes his stop and my body/leg position is the same, he needs to be backing up. If I cue the stop, he stops and I release the cues(neutral body) position he stands.
He needs to have his body in the same shape for the stop and the back. He should look like a boat. His hindquarters engaged underneath, his back rounded and his shoulders elevated.
So if you stop and keep same feet forward position, your horse would commence to backing... You stop without reins, correct? Do you need reins to add the backup to that? Or can you backup without reins?
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    07-31-2012, 08:42 PM
  #17
Weanling
Interesting discussion. I'm subbing to follow this.
     
    07-31-2012, 08:43 PM
  #18
Weanling
I'm just happy my question wasn't quite as stupid as I thought it might be.
I'm going to give my brain a break for awhile. I'll check this out again in a bit.
Thank you everyone that has replied so far!
     
    07-31-2012, 08:57 PM
  #19
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by katbalu    
So if you stop and keep same feet forward position, your horse would commence to backing... You stop without reins, correct? Do you need reins to add the backup to that? Or can you backup without reins?
Posted via Mobile Device
Correct. I don't use the reins unless I have to. He should work off of your seat and legs. If he is dragging his front for the backup I might pickup the reins to encourage him to pickup his shoulders then slap his shoulders with the sides of my feet to encourage to pick up the pace. As soon as I feel him pick up and soften I release the reins. I don't want to babysit him into position. If you use the reins to drag him back, he will continue to get heavier and heavier.

This is just what works for me, I am not saying this is the right way or the only way.
     
    07-31-2012, 09:33 PM
  #20
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by COWCHICK77    
Correct. I don't use the reins unless I have to. He should work off of your seat and legs. If he is dragging his front for the backup I might pickup the reins to encourage him to pickup his shoulders then slap his shoulders with the sides of my feet to encourage to pick up the pace. As soon as I feel him pick up and soften I release the reins. I don't want to babysit him into position. If you use the reins to drag him back, he will continue to get heavier and heavier.

This is just what works for me, I am not saying this is the right way or the only way.
That is exactly what I was looking for. I spent the weekend at a clinic with 3 trainers riding with us. We did so many things. My horse started with no backup and no willingness to give to the bit. By the end, I had him yielding to pressure, stopping off my seat, backing, sidepassing, walking in a 'collected/connected' way. But all of those things are a lot easier when you have someone riding beside you talking you through it. And I got home, and got on my horse, and my brain did that thing like when 2 wrong wires touch, and spark, and then a little puff of black smoke goes up into the air...
So I got out my notebook to write some goals down, and realized that, while I did infact accomplish those things, I didn't quite understand them all, or even remember quite how I accomplished them all. But how you described is how they got me stopping with no reins and backing up as well. I guess some details didn't quite make it to the front of my memory. And the details that did make it, I still have to make sense of. So anyway, while sidepassing was fun, it will be awhile before I'm working on that! But oneday...
     

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