Collection?
 
 

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Collection?

This is a discussion on Collection? within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category
  • False collection iberain horses
  • Horse training videos iberian exabition

 
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    06-02-2011, 08:02 PM
  #1
Foal
Collection?

Okay I just wanted to post 2 videos of collecting a horse.

The first video is from a dressage trainer who I used to watch videos of.

YouTube - ‪DTOReisa's Channel‬‏

And This on is from a trainer I am now following.


I think its silly to pull on the horses mouth to get him to 'collect' when you can do it without touching your reins! Its ridiculous! If your horse will collect on the ground, then he can do it with you on him without you pulling on him Just saying....

So what are your opinions? (I know the second one is more pictures but I can find any good youtube videos. I have his DVDs though :)
     
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    06-03-2011, 02:25 AM
  #2
Trained
Ummmmmm..... do you actually have an understanding of what collection is mate?
If you're referring to collection in a dressage sense which I assume you are, does that mean you are also implying that collection achieved while riding in a bridle is ridiculous? Because - if you had any understanding of the mechanics of collection and have read anything that any of us forum dressage nazi's have been preaching for god knows how long, you would understand that collection is NOT achieved through 'pulling on the reins', but is in fact achieved through creating engagement of the hindquarters. The rein and bit is simply used to 'complete the circuit' by providing the horse with a contact to work into. There is absolutely ZERO pull back pressure on the bit on a genuinely collected horse.

The 'pulling on the mouth' is a rookies version of collection to pull the horse's head in to a 'frame' to make him look pretty and 'collected'.
     
    06-03-2011, 04:49 AM
  #3
Foal
No I know this, its just that you should not have to use the reins at all. Or to as you put it, "Complete the circuit". I am just saying that I would much rather have my horse collect naturally then have to engage his hindquarters and use the reins to complete the circuit. He should do this already without me asking. Just my two cents on the matter. I do not mean to insult or offend anyone just wondering what others opinions are on collection and simply stating what I believe is true collection and how it should be.

KJR
     
    06-03-2011, 04:54 AM
  #4
Trained
Thats great to have your opinion and it's all very 'natural horsemanship like', however the energy you create in the hindquarters needs to be contained somewhere to create true collection and connection under saddle. This is not pulling on the reins as you stated. THIS is what has got my back up. I'd be interested to hear your own experience in dressage and 'collection'.
     
    06-03-2011, 09:44 AM
  #5
Showing
Kayty said it all already, but I'd be very interested to hear how you can collect the horse without making it working from behind.... That definitely would be a big help for my lazy qh as she's not the biggest fan to work... I'd also amaze my trainer then!
     
    06-03-2011, 10:09 AM
  #6
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by kitten_Val    
Kayty said it all already, but I'd be very interested to hear how you can collect the horse without making it working from behind.... That definitely would be a big help for my lazy qh as she's not the biggest fan to work... I'd also amaze my trainer then!

You can't actually.

The problem I have is with videos like the one the OP posted is that they will all be with Iberian horses.

These are short coupled type horses that are BRED for collected work. They "almost" come collected. By this I mean that they find collected work much easier for them than any extended type work.

To put a long backed TB in the hands of such "trainers" would give them a challenge to do what they do with the Iberian horse and the results from a TB type horse would be a far cry from what you would get from an Iberian.
     
    06-03-2011, 10:12 AM
  #7
Showing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spyder    
You can't actually.
Of course. That's why I asked.
     
    06-03-2011, 10:43 AM
  #8
Super Moderator
Collection is an interesting topic all the way around. There are so many misconceptions when it comes to collection and there are actually different types of collection depending on the discipline and the breed of horse (way of going). Many people will disagree with that statement but I believe it to be true.

Many people assume that because the horse is moving slowly and consistantly it is collected and that just isn't true. Some folks will assume that because they have a low headset their horse is on the bit which also isn't true.

The reason the bit is used as a tool for achieving headset is that you are creating a barrier in a sense. You are pushing your horse forward with your legs and your seat forcing him to move from behind yet with the help of the bit you are creating a wall which causes him to collect up. If that makes sense...
     
    06-03-2011, 10:44 AM
  #9
Super Moderator
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spyder    
You can't actually.

The problem I have is with videos like the one the OP posted is that they will all be with Iberian horses.

These are short coupled type horses that are BRED for collected work. They "almost" come collected. By this I mean that they find collected work much easier for them than any extended type work.

To put a long backed TB in the hands of such "trainers" would give them a challenge to do what they do with the Iberian horse and the results from a TB type horse would be a far cry from what you would get from an Iberian.
Would a walking horse fall into that category? They seem to me to work "happier" when they are collected....?
     
    06-03-2011, 01:07 PM
  #10
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by farmpony84    
Would a walking horse fall into that category? They seem to me to work "happier" when they are collected....?
It's more in the conformation of the horses. Friends of mine just imported two iberian horses and had to actually teach them how to go in a "working" gait to show them in the lower levels. Both have a natural passage and piaffe and the 3 year old would only do walk-canter-walk for the longest time he couldn't do the transition from trot. Keep in mind this natural tendency towards "collection" is often incorrect and dis engaged, hence why we must teach the horse first how to push behind into a working gait instead of allowing him to be in false collection.
Warmbloods and most other horses are the opposite, usually. They usually go in working gaits and it is the act of beginning to develop collection where they develop more pushing power.

OP I have a PSG horse and let me tell you I ride my ass off to get him collected and engaged. I could just let him passage around and it would look pretty, much like the horses in the video, but then the riding ceases to be dressage and becomes trick or exhibition riding. The reins are an integral part of riding and it is very important for a rider to learn how to use that connection to communicate with the horse in a way which does not impede him. "completing the circuit" does not mean the rider is lightly holding the rein with a dead feeling hand. The rein aid, like the seat and leg aid are active, responsive and feeling, all the time in the collection.
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