Collection again - The Horse Forum

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post #1 of 19 Old 03-05-2008, 10:16 AM Thread Starter
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Collection again

I always thought that the more the horses head was bent under the better it is, especially for collection...but my trainer told me on Sunday that it's not good and you have less control of the horse that way.

My problem is, is that Sonny will curve his head alot when I tell him to collect himself. He just does it naturally. I can see his shadow on the walls of the arena and it doesn't look abnormal at all, but my trainer says it's wrong.

If you don't want your horse's head/neck to be overly curved, how can I get it to be in the right position at least most of the time?
I don't have any pictures of him "overly" bent but here's one of him collected fairly well
http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/i...t/CIMG0665.jpg

http://s263.photobucket.com/albums/i...t=CIMG0659.flv
At around 24 seconds (the time thing will show 50 seconds because it's counting backwards) it shows how far he bends. Now I think it looks amazing...and that it's correct, but my trainer doesn't agree
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post #2 of 19 Old 03-05-2008, 11:19 AM
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its hard to tell from the still pic because of the angle but he does look a little overbent/behind the vertical

At the 50 second mark that you were talking about I would definitely say he is overbent/behind the vertical. Heres a couple of pics of my girl and me working. Her head is in the perfect spot






Here is a link to a behind the vertical pic and an explanation of it all
http://images.google.com.au/imgres?i...%3Den%26sa%3DN

Most of the time the problem can be the riders hands being to harsh. Your trainer should talk to you about that and how you get the right frame. He does seem a bit annoyed and doesnt keep his head down for longer than a couple of seconds so it seems to me that he isnt happy with something. As long as your tack etc is fine then I would have to say that the problem is you. I mean no offence by that because I have some problems to that make my horses do the wrong thing. The horse will do what he is asked IF he knows what is being asked of him

"I whisper but my horse doesnt listen...So I yell!!...He still doesnt listen"


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post #3 of 19 Old 03-05-2008, 08:02 PM
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You want your horse on the vertical, not behind or in front of it. By the looks of the video, your horse is still very unsure about where he should be holding his head; he's constantly trying to figure out where it should be.
Definitely talk to your trainer and get a consistant headset established.


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post #4 of 19 Old 03-06-2008, 05:11 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustDressageIt
You want your horse on the vertical, not behind or in front of it. By the looks of the video, your horse is still very unsure about where he should be holding his head; he's constantly trying to figure out where it should be.
Definitely talk to your trainer and get a consistant headset established.
he is unsure of what to do. I will talk to my trainer to see how to do it. It's getting quite frustrating though, for I can't see that it's anything I'm doing wrong (though it very well could be my fault). Once he gets the "headset" that my trainer said that you want, I'll let him have a little rein, not alot, but enough to where it isn't tight on his mouth.

How can I get him to do it correctly? Or is it just a "takes time" thing?
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post #5 of 19 Old 03-06-2008, 05:22 PM
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practice practice practice :) practice keeping a nice steady pressure on the reins and driving him forward into a frame. It seems he does know what to do he just isnt very confident with it. Work on being soft and supple yourself and it will make it easier for him to be soft and supple :) don't forget to reward by giving a little when he puts his head down. Even if you exaggerate it in the beginning. Im in the process of getting my wb in a constant frame instead of going in and out of one. Because we have done so much pressure and release work he is reasonably sensitive to pressure. When he puts his head down I immediately give so there is no pressure at all on his mouth. Then I pet him and walk on. This is just a little exercise I do for a bit each day. Even if we don't do any flatwork its good to just chill out and take it slow.

Ground work wouldnt hurt either. Maybe some lunging with side reins. This can help to for any balance issues. A lunging system is also a good idea but im not sure if you have access to one or could get one. But yeah, practice and groundwork and you will get there :)

"I whisper but my horse doesnt listen...So I yell!!...He still doesnt listen"


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post #6 of 19 Old 03-06-2008, 05:33 PM Thread Starter
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here are some better pictures of him going. Some are of me trying to collect him...others aren't.
Please forgive the blurry pictures...some, though they are blurry, I thought you could get the general idea of where the head is
http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/i...t/CIMG0667.jpg
http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/i...t/IMG_0118.jpg
http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/i...t/IMG_0115.jpg

It's hard for me to tell all the time if Sonny is collected or overly bent when I'm riding him. And my mom/dad who takes the pictures knows nothing about it
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post #7 of 19 Old 03-06-2008, 05:36 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzyrider
practice practice practice :) practice keeping a nice steady pressure on the reins and driving him forward into a frame. It seems he does know what to do he just isnt very confident with it. Work on being soft and supple yourself and it will make it easier for him to be soft and supple :) don't forget to reward by giving a little when he puts his head down. Even if you exaggerate it in the beginning. Im in the process of getting my wb in a constant frame instead of going in and out of one. Because we have done so much pressure and release work he is reasonably sensitive to pressure. When he puts his head down I immediately give so there is no pressure at all on his mouth. Then I pet him and walk on. This is just a little exercise I do for a bit each day. Even if we don't do any flatwork its good to just chill out and take it slow.

Ground work wouldnt hurt either. Maybe some lunging with side reins. This can help to for any balance issues. A lunging system is also a good idea but im not sure if you have access to one or could get one. But yeah, practice and groundwork and you will get there :)
I'm not sure if the BO has any side reins, and if she doesn't I don't have access to any. The only problem is that, though I want my trainer (who is also the BO) to work with Sonny on getting a good head-set, Sonny is really afraid of her for some reason, and he doesn't like her even touching him. So that poses a problem there
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post #8 of 19 Old 03-07-2008, 05:39 PM
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http://www.nextag.com/Equestrian--zz...09zB6z5---html

That's a link to a page that has them pretty cheap.
The photos you posted - in the first one he is still in front but much better and closer to where he should be :)
He's still in front in the second photo to
And in the third he is even higher
Ideally your horses face should be running a straight line down to the ground with no angle. Like a letter T :)

Oh and if you don't have a lunge roller to use the side reins with you can saddle him to lunge him and attach the reins to the saddle. Probably get your trainer to work with you at first to so she can make sure the reins arent to tight/loose etc

"I whisper but my horse doesnt listen...So I yell!!...He still doesnt listen"


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post #9 of 19 Old 03-07-2008, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonnyWimps
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustDressageIt
You want your horse on the vertical, not behind or in front of it. By the looks of the video, your horse is still very unsure about where he should be holding his head; he's constantly trying to figure out where it should be.
Definitely talk to your trainer and get a consistant headset established.
he is unsure of what to do. I will talk to my trainer to see how to do it. It's getting quite frustrating though, for I can't see that it's anything I'm doing wrong (though it very well could be my fault). Once he gets the "headset" that my trainer said that you want, I'll let him have a little rein, not alot, but enough to where it isn't tight on his mouth.

How can I get him to do it correctly? Or is it just a "takes time" thing?
You want to correct him when he's wrong, and leave him alone when he's right. That's all you can do, is be consistent, and soon enough he'll think "well when I'm here (not proper head set) she bugs me, but when I'm here (proper head set) she leaves me alone. Aha! I get it!" It does take time, and it is frusterating at times, but you will get it. Having someone on the ground to tell you when you're right and wrong is priceless, it will really help.
Post more questions if you have them!


The lovely images above provided by CVLC Photography cvlphotography.com
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post #10 of 19 Old 03-08-2008, 10:48 AM
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Don't give yourself such a hard time. You guys look a lot better than how you are feeling. You are both learning and feeding off of each other. Just remember to stay patient with him. He seems to be trying really hard.
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