Collection "Bobbling"? - The Horse Forum
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post #1 of 17 Old 01-05-2011, 04:11 AM Thread Starter
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Collection "Bobbling"?

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He has come a very long way and I am so proud.
Anyway, I see that he kind of "bobbles" in and out when on the bit. Will stillness of the head come as his neck muscles become stronger? Or is there something I'm doing wrong? Any help/suggestions are welcomed!

Thank you.
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post #2 of 17 Old 01-05-2011, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoodIndigo View Post
View My Video

He has come a very long way and I am so proud.
Anyway, I see that he kind of "bobbles" in and out when on the bit. Will stillness of the head come as his neck muscles become stronger? Or is there something I'm doing wrong? Any help/suggestions are welcomed!

Thank you.
First he is not collected.

It is normal to have a small amount of head movement at this stage of its training however the problem is you don't know what to do with it.

I notice that you are riding mostly from your knees and the lower leg is mainly being hung out to dry. You are giving this horse no impus and therefore he is not being driven to the bit.

The horse responds by pushing against the bit then dropping its head and you simply lose contact so the horse looks around as no direction has been given to it.

You will need to learn to ride this horse and give it directions so it can respond to you and have less time to be "busy".
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post #3 of 17 Old 01-05-2011, 11:29 AM
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You need to work on your hands -- a lot. Watch them by themselves and you will see that they 'post' with you and are constantly moving up an down and back and forth. Your forearm from your elbow to your fingers should be part of your horse. If you want a steady head, you have to have steady hands. You nedd to elevate them slightly and then you can 'open' and 'close' your elbow as your body moves so your hands can follow your horse's head.

As already mentioned, you need to work on using your seat and legs to 'drive ' your horse forward. Collection is simply getting a horse to carry himself with a greater amount of weight shifted back to his hind quarters and less weight placed on his forehand. Collection teaches a horse to elevate its shoulders, become 'light' in the rider's hands and do everything better from lateral movements to stops and back. A high degree of collection is necessary for flying lead changes, sliding stops, spins or pirouettes and any other advanced movement.

Allowing a horse to push on the bit and 'hang' in the rider's hands creates horses that travel rough, sloppy, four beat and stop on their front ends. Lightness will never be achieved.
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post #4 of 17 Old 01-05-2011, 03:55 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spyder View Post
I notice that you are riding mostly from your knees and the lower leg is mainly being hung out to dry. You are giving this horse no impus and therefore he is not being driven to the bit.

The horse responds by pushing against the bit then dropping its head and you simply lose contact so the horse looks around as no direction has been given to it.

You will need to learn to ride this horse and give it directions so it can respond to you and have less time to be "busy".
1. I notice that you are riding mostly from your knees and the lower leg is mainly being hung out to dry.

Then what should I do?

2. You are giving this horse no impus and therefore he is not being driven to the bit.

What is impus and how can I achieve this?

3. The horse responds by pushing against the bit then dropping its head and you simply lose contact so the horse looks around as no direction has been given to it.

Are you talking about my horse or horses in general? Please rephrase. I don't understand what you are saying.

4. You will need to learn to ride this horse and give it directions so it can respond to you and have less time to be "busy".

Again, how?


Thanks but you really didn't answer my questions; rather just told me what I'm doing wrong.
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post #5 of 17 Old 01-05-2011, 03:59 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherie View Post
You need to work on your hands -- a lot. Watch them by themselves and you will see that they 'post' with you and are constantly moving up an down and back and forth. Your forearm from your elbow to your fingers should be part of your horse. If you want a steady head, you have to have steady hands. You nedd to elevate them slightly and then you can 'open' and 'close' your elbow as your body moves so your hands can follow your horse's head.

As already mentioned, you need to work on using your seat and legs to 'drive ' your horse forward. Collection is simply getting a horse to carry himself with a greater amount of weight shifted back to his hind quarters and less weight placed on his forehand. Collection teaches a horse to elevate its shoulders, become 'light' in the rider's hands and do everything better from lateral movements to stops and back. A high degree of collection is necessary for flying lead changes, sliding stops, spins or pirouettes and any other advanced movement.

Allowing a horse to push on the bit and 'hang' in the rider's hands creates horses that travel rough, sloppy, four beat and stop on their front ends. Lightness will never be achieved.

1. You nedd to elevate them slightly and then you can 'open' and 'close' your elbow as your body moves so your hands can follow your horse's head.

So, you want me to carry my hands higher? I was taught there should be a straight line from elbow to bit.

I think what I'm really doing is stiffening my elbows, and not allowing them to move. Should I just relax?

I think that might also be why he sort of braces against my hands once in a while. But mind you, not often at all.

That day he was going pretty fast, and I was trying to slow him a little, so that's probably why my elbows were so stiff.


2. Can you give me suggestions on how to work on collection, then? A definition doesn't really help much.

Thanks.
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post #6 of 17 Old 01-05-2011, 06:00 PM
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From the Judge's Point of View

My name is Anna Jane White-Mullin, and I've been a "Big R" judge in hunters, hunter seat equitation, and jumpers for more than 30 years, so I'll give you my take from the judge's point of view. Your lower leg is not as stable as it could be, as indicated by it moving around instead of staying steady on the side of the horse. If you'll go to my website, annamullin.com, and search under "Horse Articles" for an article entitled, "Strengthening the Rider's Position," you'll find some specific exercises that will help you increase the stability of your lower leg. Related to this is the movement of your hands when you post. Notice how they go up and down with your body. They will tend to do this when you don't have enough stability in the leg, for you're actually catching your balance a little with your hands every time you rise. This causes intermittent contact with the horse's mouth, and the animal is reacting to it by bobbing its head. Also, I noticed that when you changed directions, you didn't release the pressure on the outside rein enough for the horse to go into a true bend. Consequently, the animal was a little stiff travelling to the right. The horse should be uniformly bent from head to tail so that its spine matches the curve of the figure. Search in my "Horse Articles" for "How to Bend a Horse" and you'll see some bird's-eye drawings and some text to clarify the bending process. Finally, toward the end of your workout, the horse began to drop behind your leg rather than staying forward on the bit. I think the animal was reacting to the overactive hands, which would tend to fray the horse's nerves a little with time. Having said all of this, I think you are a respectable rider who mainly needs to stabilize the position of your legs so that your hands can be steadier on the reins. I hope this is helpful! -- Best wishes, Anna Jane

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoodIndigo View Post
View My Video

He has come a very long way and I am so proud.
Anyway, I see that he kind of "bobbles" in and out when on the bit. Will stillness of the head come as his neck muscles become stronger? Or is there something I'm doing wrong? Any help/suggestions are welcomed!

Thank you.
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post #7 of 17 Old 01-05-2011, 06:01 PM
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Your hands need alot of work. Concider your hands to be an extension of his mouth. your hands should remain still no matter what your body is doing, this is called having an independant seat.
To Develop an independant seat you need to spend alot of time on the lunge without reins and doing alot of work without stirrups, that will teach you to balance yourself and not use your hands for balance as you are doing now.
Carry your hands slightly higher, flex at the elbow and follow the movement of his neck with your hands.

a contact should be light and gentle and they should not lean against it but the MOST important thing is that it is consistant so still, relaxed and consistant hands.
What you are currently doing is getting it right occasionaly but because your hands are not still you are throwing away the contact and confusing the horse, that is why his head is not still.

Speed has NOTHING to do with collection, a horse can e extremly slow and still not collected! collection has to do with impulsion, the power from the back end. You want to create the power with your seat and legs and then contain it with your hands, too much containment and the horse will explode upwards, too little and all the power rushes out the front door and is useless.

RIDE your horse FORWARDS and keep him STRAIGHT


Last edited by faye; 01-05-2011 at 06:07 PM.
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post #8 of 17 Old 01-05-2011, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoodIndigo View Post

Thanks but you really didn't answer my questions; rather just told me what I'm doing wrong.

The best advice I can give you is to get a good dressage instructor. There are many areas that need to be looked at and fixed and they stem from what I see a general lack of understanding of the basics of dressage.

I can give you instructions on what to do but the problem is that unless they are applied at the correct time and at the right degree they would not help.

You really need someone knowledgeable on the ground that can correct where you are going off course AT THAT TIME.

I am also not a fan of having higher hands (esp for a beginner) as it often leads to inconsistent contact and too much movement.

Faye has given you good advice in working on the lunge
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post #9 of 17 Old 01-05-2011, 08:34 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amullin View Post
My name is Anna Jane White-Mullin, and I've been a "Big R" judge in hunters, hunter seat equitation, and jumpers for more than 30 years, so I'll give you my take from the judge's point of view. Your lower leg is not as stable as it could be, as indicated by it moving around instead of staying steady on the side of the horse. If you'll go to my website, annamullin.com, and search under "Horse Articles" for an article entitled, "Strengthening the Rider's Position," you'll find some specific exercises that will help you increase the stability of your lower leg. Related to this is the movement of your hands when you post. Notice how they go up and down with your body. They will tend to do this when you don't have enough stability in the leg, for you're actually catching your balance a little with your hands every time you rise. This causes intermittent contact with the horse's mouth, and the animal is reacting to it by bobbing its head. Also, I noticed that when you changed directions, you didn't release the pressure on the outside rein enough for the horse to go into a true bend. Consequently, the animal was a little stiff travelling to the right. The horse should be uniformly bent from head to tail so that its spine matches the curve of the figure. Search in my "Horse Articles" for "How to Bend a Horse" and you'll see some bird's-eye drawings and some text to clarify the bending process. Finally, toward the end of your workout, the horse began to drop behind your leg rather than staying forward on the bit. I think the animal was reacting to the overactive hands, which would tend to fray the horse's nerves a little with time. Having said all of this, I think you are a respectable rider who mainly needs to stabilize the position of your legs so that your hands can be steadier on the reins. I hope this is helpful! -- Best wishes, Anna Jane
Thank you this is very helpful. That day he was rushing a lot and I think this is why my legs are off the whole time.. where usually they aren't. I'm definitely going to work on them, though.

I will go to your site and look at the two articles because they seem like they will help.

The one comment you made about bending.. I learned to turn with the outside rein.. Maybe I didn't follow up with inside leg this particular time, but should I not turn with the outside rein.. or?

Thanks a bunch!
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post #10 of 17 Old 01-05-2011, 08:36 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spyder View Post
I am also not a fan of having higher hands (esp for a beginner) as it often leads to inconsistent contact and too much movement.
Are you telling me I'm a beginner?

I've been riding for 11 years, I know what I'm doing. I've obviously just picked up bad habits. My horse is young and is a tough ride. Please do not tell me where I am in my training.
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