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Correct movement - engaging his back

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        11-18-2012, 05:30 PM
      #11
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by churumbeque    
    I also think you should be riding him like an arabian and not trying to make him a peanut roller.
    What exactly do you mean "like an Arabian"? If you mean head up and nose out, as Arabians are most often seen moving, then I don't think that will work. I'm trying to teach him to use his body correctly, though at the moment it's like the blind leading the blind. I'm not trying to turn him into a western-pleasure horse, if that's what you mean "peanut roller". I'm just trying to do what I've researched to be the best method of teaching him to use his body and I'll eventually work that into a correct frame with a higher-set head and medium trot. In endurance, the medium or working trot is ideal, so I need to get him to move efficiently and correctly first then work up to doing that at a medium trot.
         
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        11-18-2012, 05:37 PM
      #12
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by churumbeque    
    I was doing a search for endurance horses and I would say none had their heads low nor looked collected. Impossible to keep collected for long periods of time. Anyway I saw this article and thought it to be interesting.

    Positive Dissociation Indicates Effecient Movement - Dunc's Diatribe | EasyCare
    I don't intend to race collected, but rather teach him to use his body correctly, first, and then move back into conditioning using the skills we've learned from collection and engaging the hind end.

    In addition, my horse and other endurance horses often have their heads lower, but you'll never get pictures of that. Usually, endurance riders are too busy to take their own pictures, so the pictures you see are from photographers and people in camp. These are the most exciting times for an endurance horse, because this strange monster just popped up and, if you're riding with anyone, you separate your horses so you can each get a picture. These are the "bad-beahvior" moments and are very exciting. Plus, when you come into camp or a vet check, the other high-photography place, there are suddenly many more horses, riders, and things going on, so again the head comes up.

    I initially decided to work on head-lowering because a very experienced suggested it after watching my boy multiple times. In addition, I think any horse should collect when asked. It's simply obedience and respect.
         
        11-18-2012, 05:44 PM
      #13
    Super Moderator
    Ok. The 10 minutes I spent writing an in depth reply is not of interest?

    Sorry if that sounds a bit snotty. My husband says I got out of bed on the wrong side, maybe he's right. But I spent quite some time watching your video, writing replies and was looking forward to YOUR reply
         
        11-18-2012, 05:45 PM
      #14
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tinyliny    
    I have a different perspective from that which has been put out so far.

    I beleive long and low can be useful for almost any horse, except perhaps a draft used for pulling, and in fact, maybe for them , too. Yes, initially the horse IS on the forehand. That is part of the process. Long and low is a step in the progression toward collection. It is also used to encourage a stretching of the back in one direction, and more importantly, it's used to train a horse to learn to come to the bit and follow the bit forward, which is especially useful for a horse that has learned to come behind the bit, have a tight contracted back and thus is impossible to get enough impulsion for the rider to have anything TO collect.
    Thank you, this is exactly what I was trying to do, and the process will be slower because I'm trying to figure it out more or less on my own. I'm not sure exactly what "behind the bit" means, but it seems you've caught on to what I was trying to achieve. I'm still not sure how to tell if he's on his forehand, but I'll keep working.


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tinyliny    
    you must have impulsion to be able to have collection. The impulsion must be containable by the rider. (the ride from back to front requires you to have a front (the bit) to ride toward, right?) impulsion that just runs out the front is just a horse running away.
    How do I get this impulsion you speak of? And then how do I go about keeping it while we collect?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tinyliny    
    So, I do see the value in doing work long and low, especially if a horse has been hollowing out due to back issues cuased by a bad saddle, the saddle is remedied and the rider wants to erase a possible bad habit that was developing and get the horse back to being honest to the bit.
    I'm not entirely sure he's even been hallowing out his back, but I figure it's a good place to start to be sure I can 1) collect him at all simply because I think I should be able to collect him when I want/need to, and 2) make sure he's using his body correctly so we don't have to deal with this down the road.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tinyliny    
    This horse is an arab. He will not move the same way as a warmblood and some folks who are used to seeing warmbloods or thbds doing this kind of work will not be very impressed with an arab doing it. I think the walk section of your long and low was rather good, especially for someone who hasn't done it much.

    (more in my next post)
    Thank you :) It does help to get some perspective - he's the first non-stock type horse I've ever owned or even ridden, so I'm still getting used to how he moves in the first place. This was one of the few rides where I felt like I could have felt right at home doing a western pleasure class lol. I'm glad the walking looked good - what about it looked good though? And is there something I was doing different (other than posting) in the trotting section that I could work on?
         
        11-18-2012, 05:45 PM
      #15
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tinyliny    
    Ok. The 10 minutes I spent writing an in depth reply is not of interest?

    Sorry if that sounds a bit snotty. My husband says I got out of bed on the wrong side, maybe he's right. But I spent quite some time watching your video, writing replies and was looking forward to YOUR reply
    Lol working on it :) Going through them in order. I'd be offended, too, if I wrote such a long and helpful reply and it got ignored! I'm doing the second half now lol
    tinyliny likes this.
         
        11-18-2012, 05:58 PM
      #16
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tinyliny    
    retyping the long post that my computer lost . . .

    As for the trotting:

    In the round pen video the horse looks almost off at the trot, in his hind . Comparing it to the february video, where he trots very evenly , this video doesn't look as good.
    I know you are doing the long and low with him in the round pen, but even so, he should be moving very vigorously forward. In fact, you have to put in a bit MORE push for impulsion in long and low than in just riding him in a circle.
    Oops, ok I guess I responded to the walking section in the last post too quick - you did answer my trotting question already :) This is the first time I've asked him to lower his head like this, and he started slowing down. Our last two rides have been very fast, and not by my choice. We're talking trying-to-take-off-and-wild fast, so I worked him in circles last ride until he was at least moving at a comfortable speed. He still wasn't slowing down and acting responsibly as well as I'd like him to, but I ended at a good place. This time, all I did was ask him to lower his head. I don't know if it was the head lowering or the last ride (or the fact that he's starting to remember he is a sane horse), but he just automatically went slow. I'll try to get him to move out a bit more next time. How would I go about doing so and keeping his head down and collecting? It seems if I speed him up, he wants to change gaits (I'm re-teaching him after his 2 months off that he can speed up without changing gaits), but more problematic for me at the moment, that he lifts his head up. The two main problems I'm having here is that when he's having a "hot" day (like the other day), I can ask him to slow down with the reins because he's going nuts, and he just tucks his head to his chest and keeps going fast (and, two weeks ago, this head-down-going-fast turned into crow-hopping), or, if he's having a more sane day like the one when this was filmed, he slows back down and looses the impulsion when I ask I'm to drop his head. So how can I get him to keep the head low (but not tucked to his chest, which is completely wrong when he does it), have impulsion, and collect?


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tinyliny    
    The others commented that your riding might have something to do with him having a sore back. It might be so. You are a bit behind the motion and this is related to you having your legs too far out in front of you, and a lack of weight down into your stirrup. You need to have your foot more under your body and be more able to stand overy your own feet. Many endurance riders simply stand in the stirrups for most of the ride, and to do that, you have to have them more or less under you. The saddle may be making this difficult due to its' design.
    Absolutely agree with everything you've said, though I have no idea how to fix any of it. I need that trainer ASAP! Should I shorten or lengthen the stirrups, or just bring my feet back? Darn western saddles I'm used to... I can go ahead and just stand up - at least that's less movement to worry about. And this saddle is a terrible fit for me, but the only other saddle I have to use right now is the one that injured his back in the first place. I'm only borrowing it until I have the money for a Specialized saddle, which has a more western shape to it in the seat with English leathers and my amazing EZ Ride endurance stirrups - those things are lifesavers!

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tinyliny    
    I commend you for considering some work at long and low. Don't do it for ages and learn to be able to take your horse down into the L and L and , maintaining contact, bring him back up into a normal position, then back down again. This stretching and compressing longitudinally will be very good for his back and balance.
    Thanks again for acknowledging my efforts. The back and forth stretching and compressing makes perfect sense, too. How should I bring his head up to normal position, and what would normal position be?
         
        11-18-2012, 06:00 PM
      #17
    Yearling
    Oh, and I think I spent 20 minutes responding to your comments, Tiny - they are much appreciated ;)
    tinyliny likes this.
         
        11-18-2012, 06:04 PM
      #18
    Green Broke
    I am not good at explaining very well and my answers are short but I am also working on collection on a young driving horse and I do my jog with the head in a normal position and then I push my hands forward and her following the bit, I go as far as she will go with out throwing her away and then I bring her back and repeat, you could describe it like an accordian. I also have her round before asking for any thing low and I do not go low for long periods of time.
         
        11-18-2012, 06:08 PM
      #19
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jillybean19    
    What exactly do you mean "like an Arabian"? If you mean head up and nose out, as Arabians are most often seen moving, then I don't think that will work. I'm trying to teach him to use his body correctly, though at the moment it's like the blind leading the blind. I'm not trying to turn him into a western-pleasure horse, if that's what you mean "peanut roller". I'm just trying to do what I've researched to be the best method of teaching him to use his body and I'll eventually work that into a correct frame with a higher-set head and medium trot. In endurance, the medium or working trot is ideal, so I need to get him to move efficiently and correctly first then work up to doing that at a medium trot.
    In the Feb 2012 she looked like an Aabian with a normal headset. I think she used her body more correctly in that video and wasn't heavy. Long and low shouldn't be heavy on the forehand as it should have the rear pushing. I will look for some photo's. I would work on a relaxed walk that she did a good overstride and get her rear working. When they are long they should be stepping further not short.
         
        11-18-2012, 06:10 PM
      #20
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by churumbeque    
    I am not good at explaining very well and my answers are short but I am also working on collection on a young driving horse and I do my jog with the head in a normal position and then I push my hands forward and her following the bit, I go as far as she will go with out throwing her away and then I bring her back and repeat, you could describe it like an accordian. I also have her round before asking for any thing low and I do not go low for long periods of time.
    This sounds a little more like what I was doing in the second video (the one in the indoor arena), the way I was raised to do it. However, I never knew it had anything with the back end, and you often see WP horses jogging with the front and back disconnected, so I was a little nervous about asking that way. Questions:

    1) What is the "normal" position to you?
    2) What do you mean "following the bit"? It was my understanding that, in this long and low frame, the goal was to get the horse stretching down and seeking contact with the bit, which he did almost exactly like it was described online (which, to me, was pretty impressive that they explained how to do it so well that he stretched down and started chewing the bit automatically and with no head tossing or fight).
    3) What do you mean by "throwing her away"?
    4) When you bring her back, what do you bring her back into? The vertical? Chin tucked to chest? Head high or low or somewhere in between?
    5) How do you get her round?
         

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