'Cowboy' method versus 'Schooling/Natural'

I think you have to use what works for you and your horse. The least amount of pressure to get what you want, if that takes a nice rerquest and horse responds - great, if not and you gotta ride them out like you did to get waht you need out of your horse- that's what you gotta do. Sometimes you gotta be FIRM.

To answer your original question,

I think it depends on what you think will work best for the horse. As you said he hasn't been responding what you've done thus far, therefore, a new approach is necessary. Obviously, what you did with Loki was successful and your method seemed to have gotten your point across, so, yes, I think trying it again could not hurt.

It is definitely possible to do no groundwork at all and have a safe, sane, reliable horse. It's happened innumerable times, ever since someone thought about sitting on a horse.

Granted, I'm not yet 20 and have never started a wild baby from the ground up, but with my relative greenies or broke horses in need of reschooling basics, I find that good groundwork puts the horse in a habit of saying "yes Ma'am," or in a thinking frame of mind. I find it useful to feel the horse out from the ground, where, if things were to go South, I don't have to get my wind back or check for broken bones before I can get up and deal with the horse. I may be more timid 15 hands up, but if I have a way to test my horse's state or mind and alter it, if necessary, that gives me tons of confidence once I step in the stirrup. If I've done my groundwork right, my timidity doesn't matter so much anymore. Sometimes, when a broke horse is a little fresh, it does definitely take a little working out under saddle. Groundwork is only a piece of the puzzle, some things need handled from the saddle.

An additional benefit of groundwork is that I can lay a foundation for a cue from the ground, where I can better see what the horse's feet are doing (at least until I am experienced and sensitive enough to feel things like that). I can put my thumb into a horse's side, just where my heel will be in the saddle, and kiss to him, to move his shoulders around. When he feels my heel in the same place, and hears the kissy noise, hopefully a lightbulb goes off and he does a turn on the haunches. Same goes for backing up, turn on the forehand, etc. Even the Spanish Riding School Lipizzans first learn the Airs Above the Ground on long reins, although all of them can be performed under saddle.

Sorry, little rant there...

TwoGeldings, this thread makes me think of my dad and myself. He's in his sixties and has a very forceful approach to training in hopes for instant results where I prefer to go slow and do the groundwork.

When I was twelve my parents bought me a 2 yr. old appaloosa filly (crazy, I know) and I immediately joined a 4-H club and got into barrel racing. My dad was my mentor and I did things his way. She became an excellent barrel racer and I had her for the next 22 years, but we never had a bond. In the saddle, there was nothing she wouldn't do for me, but on the ground she was disrespectful and pushy. When I'd go to the pasture to get her, she'd run in the opposite direction.

My dad doesn't view horses as pets, they're there to to serve him. I, on the other hand, regard them as pets, members of the family even, and I want them to trust and respect them. My current two horses will always come willingly to me and always with a nicker. That makes all that time I spent with them on the ground worth it.

Anyway, to answer your question, as others have said, it really depends on what works best for the horse, but I don't think going slow can ever be the wrong thing to do. :)

Ever had a unhandled stud snake his head around and try to grab your arm while brushing??? If I have a brush in my hand he will get it in the chops or anything else I can quickly smack him with.
How about working in the stall with a unruly guy, a new aquisition and have him come at you?? Smack him with an elbow in the mouth or take a bite???
How about the kicker who lashes out at you while brushing near the hind end?? A quick knee in the gut or say please????

I am extremely gentle around all animals including worms on my driveway but if an animal attacks or acts up I will quickly retaliate and I don't mean a whip and as soon as the behavoir is corrected go back to being a softy.
I am the guy standing at the gate with the bucket of apples passing them out.

You want to form a bond? Take a 3 or 4 year old neglected stallion, one that has been isolated from people and other horses.
Buy him, geld him the next day, give him a few days off to heal and then just put a saddle on and start riding. Treat him like an old broke horse. Brush him and when he lashes out knee him hard in the rib cage with a firm no, if he bits while brushing hit him in the mouth ,without the brush and elbow works but treat him like an old broke horse. Introduce him to everything including apples which I have an unending supply of and in less then a month you have a loyal friend following you around the field, one who runs to the gate when you pull in the laneway, one who can be a real talker and always greets you.

I will not touch a mare or a family pet.. They are just too hard.

I have stood several stallions here and handled breedings of many,many mares and NEVER had any problems like you are describing.

We deal primarily with behavior problems with outside horses and I have had horses come out of trailers sideways kicking and screaming.

No problem,never have to hit them at all.
There is ALWAYS a core reason for the behavior.
Most of the problem is people!

C'mon, RD, mares are SO much fun!

As for groundwork, I got both my fillies as unhandled yearlings I couldn't ride anyway. So groundwork was the only option to mess with them (except brushing and all that daily routine). Frankly I think it's a good thing to do (although I don't do it all that much anymore, I prefer to ride).

See,
That is the thing with mares.

You don't force a mare,you negotiate with her!

Well said!