The Horse Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.

Crazy Horse, attacks lunge whip and people

16K views 73 replies 32 participants last post by  successfulhorse 
#1 ·
Hello there!
I work daily with "problemed" horses in Spain, and I have finally found my match:P
This horse is a huge, 17 hh, andalusian and basically he is crazy.
I love him dearly, but the other day I was lunging him and he actually turned around and attacked the whip! He snatched it from me and basically tore it to pieces! I laugh quite a bit when I think about it, but it is pretty serious.
In his past he has killed a mare and a gelding, thus he doesn't get to stand in a paddock with other horses and I can't go on a hack with other people and there horses... heck, I can't have him near people, he gets up on his hind legs n starts trying to trample everyone and everything in sight. He even went bonkers the other day and started trampling a leaf like crazy:S was pretty scary sitting on him, as he then went buck crazy and fell to the ground.
He is breaking my heart, I have got him so far now (I mean.. I can ride him), but his owner wants to put him to sleep.
Anybody have an idea..? I'm thinking of buying him, but I know he is dangerous.. and it's a miracle that I he hasn't hurt me in anyway... but I don't know.. any ideas..?
 
#3 ·
ditto to what DressageIt said...is he a stallion? If he is then, the problem will be harder to fix. A stallion should be kept in a seperate pasture/paddock away from geldings and especially mares.

How old is he? How long has he been acting like this?
There can be ways to stop it, but then it might not work. Honestly, I'd send that horse out to a real professional trainer that has handled horses like that before. It's too much of a risk for you to try to break that horse's habits, and it's a risk just having the horse act that way at the stables.

If he's perfect with you, but not anyone else...ask to buy him from the owner instead of the owner putting him down. Or suggest that the owner sell him instead of putting him down. I'm sure there are people out there that want a challenge :wink:

First I'd just work with him on the ground. I wouldn't ride him until he's fine on the ground. Do you think he's "attacking" stuff out of boredom...fear....anger....pain....or something else? If he continues to do that I'd more than likely call a vet and see if there's anything mentally wrong with the horse and rule that out first.

Then just slowly working with him. It will take patience...and lots of it from the sounds of things
 
#4 ·
No he is actually a gelding...
And I think the owner would let him go for 500 euros, but then again he paid a lot for that horse, and knowing him he might try to con some poor person. I can pay up to 2500 euros for him, but I am not sure if I can take responsibility for his actions.
 
#5 ·
Rebel said:
No he is actually a gelding...
And I think the owner would let him go for 500 euros, but then again he paid a lot for that horse, and knowing him he might try to con some poor person. I can pay up to 2500 euros for him, but I am not sure if I can take responsibility for his actions.
find out when he was gelded. If he was gelded late in life he could just still believe he's a stallion.
Try talking to some professional trainers and get some pointers and tips from them..see what they've done in the past to prevent stuff like that.

It will be a HUGE responsibility especially if he isn't changed quickly. You'd definately want damage insurance (if you can get it) so that if the gelding does break something/hurt something/kill something that you will be at least partially covered.

If you don't want to buy him, sit down with the owner and remind him of how much he actually paid for that horse, and suggest getting a professional trainer out. It will cost money, but usually they can at least start to correct the problem
 
#6 ·
He is 15 this year and has been acting like this for 10 years. 4 out of 5 vets say he is crazy, but I have been working with him for 2 years and I believe that he just does it coz he's bored. He hasn't got mental problems I am sure, people just misunderstand him.
And two trainers have had a go at him, the first was badly injured and the second sent him back after 2 month.
He has come a long way, and I am seriously thinking about buying him and keeping him away from people and other horses for the moment... I just can't cope with him attacking another horse, or maybe yet another person.
 
#7 ·
Rebel said:
He is 15 this year and has been acting like this for 10 years. 4 out of 5 vets say he is crazy, but I have been working with him for 2 years and I believe that he just does it coz he's bored. He hasn't got mental problems I am sure, people just misunderstand him.
And two trainers have had a go at him, the first was badly injured and the second sent him back after 2 month.
He has come a long way, and I am seriously thinking about buying him and keeping him away from people and other horses for the moment... I just can't cope with him attacking another horse, or maybe yet another person.
if he's been like this for 10 years it's going to be REALLY REALLY hard for you to break that habit...by the age of 15 all his bad habits and training are usually glued in his mind, so it's going to take a long time to fix. Of course though, it depends on the horse.

What did the owner do about the horse for the first 5 years he owned him...did he just let the horse go crazy?

You said you think he does it because he's bored....then don't let him get bored....when you ride him, don't let him stop unless you plan on getting off...keep him going and thinking...collecting, circles, switching directions...keep his mind on YOU...you want him to be "Hmm...I'd better pay attention for I don't know what my rider will ask for next"....and not "I know what the rider is going to tell me to do, so I'll do what I want in the mean time".
 
#8 ·
Rebel said:
No he is actually a gelding...
And I think the owner would let him go for 500 euros, but then again he paid a lot for that horse, and knowing him he might try to con some poor person. I can pay up to 2500 euros for him, but I am not sure if I can take responsibility for his actions.

Honestly, he would be a HUGE liability. A horse that attacks people and has a track record of killing other horses is not to be taken lightly.
To be honest, and in my own humble honest opinion, putting him down might not be such a bad idea (alright, I'm bracing for all the "but you can work through it! Don't listen to JDI! comments, and let 'em rip, but hear me out) because:
- what if the horse ends up in the wrong hands? Who is going to get hurt? If the owner might pawn him off on some innocent person, I would rather see the horse dead than the person and/or more horses. (*waits for kick-back of comment*)
- It will take a LOT to get him to be a "safe" horse. Even then you won't ever be able to completely trust him
- A horse that goes crazy and attacks a leaf? Something's not right in his head, and may never be right.

Personally, I wouldn't want the liability. What if he gets out of a pen someday and goes nuts? Sure you can work him, but in the end, if there's something mentally wrong with this horse, training will NOT change it. Drugs might, but it will always be in the back of your mind that he is capable of terrible things. It's not in a horse's nature to just kill unprovoked - which brings me to my next question: how did he kill the mare and gelding? What provoked the attacks?

As said above, if he's put to sleep, you won't ever have to worry about him getting in the wrong hands and doing more damage. YOU know his history, YOU can handle him, but sooner or later, someone else will have to handle him for one reason or another - can you take that chance with a clear conscience?
 
#10 ·
JDI.. I know what you are saying, and it would be the best.
And it must come across that I'm just keeping him alive for some kind of self satisfaction, as I have become so attached to him.

But I have hope for him somehow, he has come such a long way.

And I mean, he is in the wrong hands at the moment (not me, but his owner), if he just gets away from that owner he might settle a bit too. I mean, his owner shouts and is a complete psycho.

And I don't really know the reason for the killing.. and I know that it isn't in a horses nature to do such things. But I still have hope for the ******.

There is something about him, he doesn't seem to do it in spite.. he just seems to b a bit cheeky and go to far, i know i know.. sound sick haha:P But at times, he is the most loving horse you will ever meet, and at times he is a beast.
And I say that he seems to do it due to boredom, because it is kind of logical. All he does is stand in all day, and the only time he gets to go out is once a month with his owner and 3 times a week with me. Otherwise he is in his box at _all_ time. He's not aloud to run around in the paddock on his own coz he tries to jump the fence:/
I'm not sure, but I want to give him another chance.
But there is still that liability, he might do something and then I just can't take can't b responsible. I really have to think long and hard on this one...
 
#11 ·
JustDressageIt said:
Rebel said:
No he is actually a gelding...
And I think the owner would let him go for 500 euros, but then again he paid a lot for that horse, and knowing him he might try to con some poor person. I can pay up to 2500 euros for him, but I am not sure if I can take responsibility for his actions.

Honestly, he would be a HUGE liability. A horse that attacks people and has a track record of killing other horses is not to be taken lightly.
To be honest, and in my own humble honest opinion, putting him down might not be such a bad idea (alright, I'm bracing for all the "but you can work through it! Don't listen to JDI! comments, and let 'em rip, but hear me out) because:
- what if the horse ends up in the wrong hands? Who is going to get hurt? If the owner might pawn him off on some innocent person, I would rather see the horse dead than the person and/or more horses. (*waits for kick-back of comment*)
- It will take a LOT to get him to be a "safe" horse. Even then you won't ever be able to completely trust him
- A horse that goes crazy and attacks a leaf? Something's not right in his head, and may never be right.

Personally, I wouldn't want the liability. What if he gets out of a pen someday and goes nuts? Sure you can work him, but in the end, if there's something mentally wrong with this horse, training will NOT change it. Drugs might, but it will always be in the back of your mind that he is capable of terrible things. It's not in a horse's nature to just kill unprovoked - which brings me to my next question: how did he kill the mare and gelding? What provoked the attacks?

As said above, if he's put to sleep, you won't ever have to worry about him getting in the wrong hands and doing more damage. YOU know his history, YOU can handle him, but sooner or later, someone else will have to handle him for one reason or another - can you take that chance with a clear conscience?
I'm going to have to agree with JDI on this one. If the horse was younger, 4-6 years of age, then heavens it usually can be worked through...but at age 15 it will be too difficult.

Putting down might be the best thing to do. It might be hard for you, but the horse is dangerous. It might be able to be worked through, but it would take a very long time, and might not even work

Edit: a horse shouldn't be kept in a box all the time. If he tries to jump the fence...build the fence really tall so he can't jump over it even if he tried....using electric wiring for it plus the boards will give an added protection.
 
#12 ·
Rebel said:
JDI.. I know what you are saying, and it would be the best.
And it must come across that I'm just keeping him alive for some kind of self satisfaction, as I have become so attached to him.

But I have hope for him somehow, he has come such a long way.

And I mean, he is in the wrong hands at the moment (not me, but his owner), if he just gets away from that owner he might settle a bit too. I mean, his owner shouts and is a complete psycho.

And I don't really know the reason for the killing.. and I know that it isn't in a horses nature to do such things. But I still have hope for the ******.

There is something about him, he doesn't seem to do it in spite.. he just seems to b a bit cheeky and go to far, i know i know.. sound sick haha:P But at times, he is the most loving horse you will ever meet, and at times he is a beast.
And I say that he seems to do it due to boredom, because it is kind of logical. All he does is stand in all day, and the only time he gets to go out is once a month with his owner and 3 times a week with me. Otherwise he is in his box at _all_ time. He's not aloud to run around in the paddock on his own coz he tries to jump the fence:/
I'm not sure, but I want to give him another chance.
But there is still that liability, he might do something and then I just can't take can't b responsible. I really have to think long and hard on this one...
Rebel, I never intended to imply that you didn't know what you were doing, and I sincerely apologise if it came across that way!!

Anyways, I still stand by my original opinion. Since he is older, it will be harder to train out of him, if he can ever be trained out of it. By the sounds of it, he would need strong drugs to calm him down, and that might not even do the trick.

My original reasoning: at some time or another, he WILL need to be handled by someone other than you - can you guarantee yourself that they WILL NOT be hurt? If you take even half a second's hesitation to answer this, this horse is not safe.

It might be heartbreaking, but this horse would be better off being put down. If he can't even be turned out, what kind of life does he have? Stuck in a box stall all day? I would not wish that life on any horse - and I'm terribly sorry if that sounds insensitive, but horses are meant to live outdoors and be able to run around... and if a horse is not allowed to do that, it's not hard to imagine there being side effects of this.
Some horses will try and get out of any confinement no matter how tall the fence, so I'm doubtful that would even work.

The bottom line is he's not a safe horse to be around - not just for other horses, but for people either. I certainly would not want my horse even in the same facility as him, just in case.

I commend you for wanting to save this horse, and being able to work with him, but I'm sticking to my guns that he should be put down.
 
#14 ·
I think you could give him another chance, it sounds like the horse just needs some attention, and one on one time, he needs things to do, he needs to run around and be a horse for Christs sake! I say either you buy him and give him a chance or advise the owner to put him down because honestly, unless someone that knows what they are doing buys him, that horse will not only be even unhappier but even more dangerous than he is. A horse that is that reactive to his surroundings is probably not only bored but trying to keep busy since its the only time he's not idle in his stall. Yelling at a horse is terrible and it only has adverse affects which probably only ads to his state of instability.
 
#15 ·
Abby said:
I think you could give him another chance, it sounds like the horse just needs some attention, and one on one time, he needs things to do, he needs to run around and be a horse for Christs sake! I say either you buy him and give him a chance or advise the owner to put him down because honestly, unless someone that knows what they are doing buys him, that horse will not only be even unhappier but even more dangerous than he is. A horse that is that reactive to his surroundings is probably not only bored but trying to keep busy since its the only time he's not idle in his stall. Yelling at a horse is terrible and it only has adverse affects which probably only ads to his state of instability.
What happens if he gets out, or Rebel is not there one day that he needs to be handled? If he can't even be safely HANDLED, there is a big problem. She says that the only one who can effectively handle him is her, he attacks everyone else. I can guarantee you that even if Rebel buys him, sometime in his lifetime other than her will have to handle him sooner or later. If he can't be handled by anyone other than her, he is a LIABILITY. He does not have a good life right now. He should be put down.
 
#16 ·
if the horse is doing thing like this and you are backing away then you need to tell him whos boss you need to becoume scaryer and meaner then he is (dont beat him or anything) but if he thinks he has the upper hand he will continue to misbehave I would find a safe place where you can tell him what to do but he cant get to you that way you wont get hurt and you wont be backing down
 
#17 ·
arastangrider said:
if the horse is doing thing like this and you are backing away then you need to tell him whos boss you need to becoume scaryer and meaner then he is (dont beat him or anything) but if he thinks he has the upper hand he will continue to misbehave I would find a safe place where you can tell him what to do but he cant get to you that way you wont get hurt and you wont be backing down
arastangrider, if the horse was younger I'd definately agree with you here. It doesn't sound too much of a dominance issue (though parts of it is), it's more of a behavioural (did I spell that right? :? ) issue. Sounds like the owner did nothing and let him get away with his bad behavior and it has gotten worse over the years. The worst thing you can do to a horse is let it get away with something that it shouldn't do.

Same with a horse that bucks when you ride him. If you immediate get off time and again when it bucks, it will think that "hey if I buck, I'll get out of work" and he'll do it just to stop working. But if you stay on (or get back on if you fall off) and make him work, he'll soon realize that "hey, even if I misbehave I'm STILL going to have to work...there's no getting out of it, so I might as well behave". Same thing with that horse. Sounds to me like the owner babied him way to much when he first got the horse, and of course he regrets it now, but it's going to be close to impossible to break the habit.

I'm going to have to agree with JDI. Best thing to do, for the horses safety, Rebel's safety, other horses safety, AND for other people's safety, the horse should be put down. I hate to say that, but this sounds like a hopeless case.

Rebel,
I'm sure you tried your hardest to fix the horses bad habits, but it does sound like it's too much for you. It would be WAY to much for me and any other person I can think of.
 
#18 ·
Hmm, I hate it when things like this happen.
A lady owns a horse a horse at my barn. A huge, 18hh (and big boned) Heavy hunter/Thoroughbred. He's thinks he's king of the world. Anyway, him and his brother (his owner bought him from a place a few minutes away) both act like they will KILL other new horses. And I'm not joking when I say KILL. I reason why is bloodlines, and dam. His dam never let any other horse touch let alone look at them, or she'd kill them. Do you think that could be a reason why he wants to kill other horses, and (sometimes) people?

But Rebel: I think it's horrid when a horse will want to really hurt people. Now, obviously this has to do with something in the past. But I really agree with JDI - you REALLY don't want to take chances of him (for example) getting out. This could lead to a lot of damage to you, other people and espically the horse.

You (and heck - every person!) needs to earn his respect and he needs to earn everyone elses respect. Teach him that there is good in humans, BUT there are limits.
If his owners were to sell him, I don't think anyone would want to
buy him.
 
#19 ·
I've read this thread all the way through. Even though your heart tells you that this horse could be saved, you are not thinking with your head.

The horse has killed - twice. Two trainers could do nothing and one was injured. This has gone on for years. Even if you could get this horse behaving for you - it would be JUST for you and you could never truly trust him. Someone is going to get seriously hurt.

I've never in my life suggested this but the owners are right - he should be put down. The owners most likely tried helping him during the first 5 years of his life and gelded him hoping that would save him - it didn't. Just like some horses are bucking horses in rodeos, it is their nature.

Don't let your heart get in the way of good judgment.
 
#20 ·
Rebel i feel your pain. I have a pony who is like that, but not to that extent. He has tried to kill a few horses of mine and has tried to kill me. Tho i didn't get rid of him till he broke my leg, a few months ago i got him back. I am extremely attached to him considering he was my first horse and the first one i ever trained. But he was dangerous, he still is around people who don't know how to handle him. He was a rescue and still apparently has hard feelings against it. But again he is no where near as dangerous as the one your talking about. He just will hurt you if you let him. But he can be controled, he is one of the best trail ponies i have ever come across.

But, in my opinion from what i have read, he is a danger not only to other people but himself also. It would be best if you put him down.
 
#21 ·
Dear Rebel,

Are you sure he is a gelding? You should check it if he is a cryptorch stallion. He might have another testicle in his abdomen. A vet can check it by a diagnostic ultrasonic examine.

I used to work with a cryptorch stallion and he attacked any horses nearby, even mares in their cycle of productivity. He did not covered the mares, just attacked, kicked and bit them. Finally turned out that even he was gelded, an additional testicle found in his abdomen. After operating him and getting it out, he became better handable - but still not perfect. It turned out when he was 15 years old that he is a cryptorch.

Where do you work?
 
#22 ·
Unless you are a VERY experienced horse owner/rider I wouldnt keep this boy around. It breaks my heart to say this but from some of your statements it sounds like this poor horse is already causing you some fears and anxiety which is right off the bat a turning point as to whether or not you should keep this difficult horse.

Horses are not nasty by nature. A horse gets these behavior problems because of what he has had to go thru in the past which 99% of the time caused by human fault.

Would you have the funds and chance to send him to a natural horsemanship trainer? I myself not much for NH but in cases like this one,I think he needs someone who will be able to understand his behavior and re-teach him the world and people are ok. Someone who trains with natural horsemanship in mind will have the patience to dedicate to him and show him what life is really about. I don't know that someone who trains "regular" horse would have the ability to work with him the same way.

It really sounds like this poor horse has gone thru a lot, and as much as I would really consider giving him a second chance, your health is also more important.
 
#24 ·
Moonlightem "This is a mean, ridiculous horse. Save people and other horses for him. Why is it even an issue?"
uhm, wondering if you've ever worked with horses. Of course it is an issue, he is in this state because of mankind. He should deserve a second chance... but it has gone to far, and i can nearly see sense now. But still.. found your contribution to the subject weird.

Anywayz.. someone mentioned something about an extra testicle or so, and I am actually willing to look into this, as I am willing to do pretty much anything!

Someone else also said to send him to a natural horsemanship trainer. That kind of means shipping him off to a different country, unless he becomes sedated.. he is way to dangerous to transport.
And basically, NH is what I've been doing with him to get him to where I've got him to now. He is a different horse now, 2 years ago when people saw this big brown beast they screamed in horror and ran. Now, he can be handled (ok.. by one person, and at times he'll let his owner put a halter on him) and ridden. In a paddock I can even ride in a rope halter and a lead rope, now a days he doesn't even react when people watch or when horses walk by the paddock- but outside, he is a different horse. So he can b absolutely gorgeous, but.. he can also be that beast.

The only hope I have is the fact that he has come soo far these last 2 years, and what if I gave him 2 more years i wonder where he will be.
But there I go again, as people have said.. at one point or another someone else will have to handle him. And at the moment, that is impossible, even if i get him a bit better nobody will ever trust him the way I do.
So.. the best for him and his surroundings is for him to be put down, but I am looking in to a few aspects for a bit of hope b4 i give up.
 
#25 ·
I do commend you for wanting to give this horse a second chance. I would say look into everything, and i mean everything, before deciding to put him down.
Has he had neurological exams? (can they even be done on a horse) I would look into every little thing to slowly rule them out one by one before putting him to sleep. Maybe he just has a chemical imbalance, or maybe he has an extra testicle. It may not solve everything, but it would give an answer and then you'd have a better way to solve things.

Is there someone that you know that is as willing as you to work with him? I'm sure many people would not agree with this, but if a second person to gain his trust, he might be more open to trusting more people. It might calm him down too if the days you aren't there, someone else can work with him.

Does he have anything in his stall for when he's bored? My one horse personally love the Uncle Jimmy's hanging ball. It keeps him occupied for a while and he's more willing to work with me.

If he has made a change in the past 2 years, i'm thinking that he might be able to make some more. Some will be big, while others are small.
 
#26 ·
Rebel said:
1) it has gone to far, and i can nearly see sense now.

2) someone mentioned something about an extra testicle or so, and I am actually willing to look into this, as I am willing to do pretty much anything!

3) he is way to dangerous to transport.

4) when people saw this big brown beast they screamed in horror and ran.

5) what if I gave him 2 more years i wonder where he will be.

6) at one point or another someone else will have to handle him. And at the moment, that is impossible,

7) So.. the best for him and his surroundings is for him to be put down, but I am looking in to a few aspects for a bit of hope b4 i give up.

1) Agreed.

2) Probably not an extra testicle, I think they meant an undescended testicle, which is possible, but fairly hard to remedy without expensive surgery. Um.. and in order to do ANY exam with him, the vet is going to have to get right in there around his sensitive parts... will he freak out or be fine?

3) Not good. Yet another reason for him to not be around.

4) Sounds a little hard to believe, but that's just me...

5) Okay, say you give him another 2 years... and he doesn't change... so another 2 years... he doesn't change... might hurt people and/or horses in the mean time. He has been like this for 10 years it is NOT going to change overnight.

6) So what if something happens to you? What if you do buy him and (god forbid) something happens to you? Then what? Or even more simply, what if he gets out of control somehow and you are not there to catch him and handle him - I'm talking in the near future - can you guarantee yourself that you wouldn't be worried about him hurting someone or something? It doesn't sound like it. Most "dangerous" horses can still be somewhat handled, or chased into containment - this doesn't sound like such a horse.

7) I want to ask: How much time and money are you willing to spend on him? It won't be cheap at all. Training a horse this dangerous will cost a ton. Getting an ultrasound done alone is fairly costly.


Once again, I bring up the fact that this horse DOES NOT HAVE A GOOD LIFE RIGHT NOW. He is confined to isolation and even further confined to a box stall - no turnout, from what I understand. Is this even remotely fair to him? Sure you ride him and he gets exercised a few times per week, but what else does he do? Obviously nobody else will lunge him or work him, so all he does is sit in his box stall all day? Fun.

I have never ever recommend someone put down a horse rather than try to fix it. However, it doesn't sound like you have the finances to do absolutely whatever is needed to make him right again - which is fine! I'm not trying to be demeaning at all - it will cost a ton - I certainly wouldn't have the finances or resources to do it!

If you were a multi-millionaire that had the resources to buy yourself out of any trouble that might arise and pay for vet care and training, then it would be a different story.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.
Top