Crops--cruel or beneficial when used properly? - Page 3
 
 

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Crops--cruel or beneficial when used properly?

This is a discussion on Crops--cruel or beneficial when used properly? within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category
  • Using a crop whip on a horse
  • Using saddles on horses is cruel

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    06-22-2012, 10:41 AM
  #21
Weanling
I would invest in a dressage whip. It is easier to carry with your reins still in their normal position and still be effective. If your main issue is about him backing up, being able to give that extra bit of "I said forward" from his hind end will help more than a short crop which either requires you to reach back or to pop him on the shoulder.

I do agree with Sky that your transitions sound more like a balance issue than an obedience one. Perhaps some lounging in side reins adjusted for a long and low frame would help him to learn self carriage so he can give you better transitions.
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    06-22-2012, 04:06 PM
  #22
Foal
Post Yes!

My Crop to me is like an extension of my arm!! When I turn I just tap his outside him and when I back I tap His chest. I Am really gentle just a tap! And It is a GREAT training tool!! My Horse improved on his turns a ton!!
     
    06-22-2012, 04:17 PM
  #23
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeuroticMare    
My childhood trainer (good ol' Max von Blucher from Austria) told us that getting on your pony without a crop was like going in to battle without your sword.
If I leave the barn without a crop or whip my trainer yells "Where's your weapon? You NEVER go to war without a weapon!!!".

I wouldn't whack a horse with a crop or whip if you don't know how they will react. If I was to whack mine, I'd be a bloody splotch 3 counties over... Generally just carrying one gives me PLENTY of forward.... I'll wiggle it or very, very gently touch him with it if needed but that's it.
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    06-23-2012, 06:10 PM
  #24
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delfina    
If I leave the barn without a crop or whip my trainer yells "Where's your weapon? You NEVER go to war without a weapon!!!".

I wouldn't whack a horse with a crop or whip if you don't know how they will react. If I was to whack mine, I'd be a bloody splotch 3 counties over... Generally just carrying one gives me PLENTY of forward.... I'll wiggle it or very, very gently touch him with it if needed but that's it.
Great description! Some days it sure does feel like war! Crops can definitely be a good thing, and it sounds like this might be a good time for you to add it into your riding. I can tell what kind of ride we are probably going to have based on my guy's mood. That's usually when I know whether or not I need to drag out my dressage whip. I always start out the ride giving him a chance to do what I ask, but then I'll pick it up if I need to. Most of the time I need it, I'm able to drop it by the end of our ride.
     
    06-24-2012, 10:18 AM
  #25
Weanling
My instructor has gotten me to the point where I don't think about it. I have a whip when I get on a horse. It actually feels a little odd to get on a greenie without one. I may not always have to use it, but if I do, it is part of my hand. I would no sooner get on a horse without reins than without my whip these days.
     
    06-24-2012, 10:43 AM
  #26
Showing
I'm also thinking your horse has balance issues and may not really understand what you are asking. You have trouble getting him to go forward without circling yet you expect him to transition from trot to canter. You have to build the foundation first. If he won't move forward when you apply leg, have someone lead him. As soon as he starts moving get your leg off. Repeat this many times before trying him without a helper. Just be sure your saddle fits fairly well because a poorly fitting saddle can create these problems. Also, are you well balanced in the saddle or do you put more pressure in one stirrup than the other.
     
    06-24-2012, 11:10 AM
  #27
Trained
I second the person who said get a dressage/schooling whip. Crops are useless except when jumping. Hitting the shoulder when the horse is already tending to go backwards will send it backwards faster, not forwards.

Lack of balance in the canter transition, but the rest is pure disrespect IF you are indeed being told the truth about this horse. I will say it once - RESPECT IS KEY. Horses are dangerous enough when they're behaving perfectly, why make it worse for yourself by allowing a horse to get away with disrespect? You ask for forward, you GET forward, NOW.

I start with a very soft aid - a whisper, if we're speaking in human metaphors. That can be as simple as a wiggle of a finger, or the lightest touch of a heel. Then I move up to a moderate aid, an ask. And then a strong aid, tell. A boot with all my strength in the ribs, demand. And finally, whip or spur or both - promise.

The whisper is a quiet "please oh pretty please will you?". The ask is "please?". The tell is (using walk as an example) "walk". Demand "walk NOW". Promise "YOU WILL WALK ON RIGHT NOW OR ELSE".

I never have to get beyond "please?" with my boy now. I started off having to go right the way up to the promise, and the trick is to have a REALLY good final phase because you don't HAVE anywhere to go after that so it HAS TO give you the result. But timing is key, you release the pressure AS SOON AS the horse gives you what you want. Otherwise you're abusing the horse because it doesn't understand what you're trying to teach it.

I have been accused of abuse several times before, by the "omg soft pretty please will you? No? Ok" types mostly who allow their horses to walk all over them. But the results speak for themselves, my gelding is soft and willing and has BEAUTIFUL manners with absolutely no fear whatsoever, and my filly (who I mouthed myself) is beautiful and light when I longline her, and has perfect manners - again with no trace of fear.

You have to throw away your care of what OTHER PEOPLE think of you, to be able to successfully regain the respect of a horse once you have lost it. You do need to start gentle every time or the horse will never learn to be truly soft, BUT you do need to be able to be very firm, even harsh, if necessary. Do whatever it takes to get the result you want, and the horse will very quickly learn to respond to a softer aid, because it's much more pleasant to be gently touched (or not at all) than to be hit with a whip.
     
    06-24-2012, 11:30 AM
  #28
Green Broke
A crop or popper may help yes, but a couple of things concern me a little as there could be a good reason for the behavior. The refusing to move forward, and the backing when you ask to go forward are both signs that your saddle could be hitting the backs of your horse's shoulders. Please double check that your saddle is fitting properly... if you aren't sure how to tell, take pictures of the saddle on your horse with NO pad and not girthed, from the front, sides and back and post them and there will be plenty of people that can help you on here.

As for hitting the shoulders. After you saddle up, with help if you need it, pick up one of your horse's front legs and while supporting from behind and just above the knee stretch it forward while watching where the back of his shoulder is going... you may have to put your hand on the back of his shoulder to feel where it is going. Youmay have to lift the knee a bit high, the goal is to find where the shoulder's range of motion is while the horse is moving. If either shoulder touches the saddle when you do this, even a little, that is a BIG irritation to the horse while being worked and can even cause bruising. Imagine someone thumping you hard in the back of the elbow every few seconds...after a while you'd scream KNOCK IT OFF! LOL

If this horse hasn't been consistently worked, and then starts working again with a piece of tack that is irritating or painful, he will digress even more as he will start to associate pain with working and eventually make matters worse no matter how much you use a crop. Some horses even start to resort to rearing and other bad habits when forced to work with painful tack so be careful and make sure this isn't your issue :)
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    06-24-2012, 11:39 AM
  #29
Trained
Cin I considered that too, but enough people had mentioned it that I figured I didn't need to reiterate. Yep, saddle fit is important too. And, OP, make sure you're not whacking the horse in the mouth when you ask him to go forward - that REALLY irritates me when I see it. Mixed signals for some horses, a CUE to go backwards for others! My horse backs when you push him forward into an unyielding rein.
     
    06-24-2012, 02:52 PM
  #30
Foal
Is the transition from western to english causing any confusion?
jaydee likes this.
     

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