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Dangerous rude behavior, please help!

This is a discussion on Dangerous rude behavior, please help! within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category

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        12-24-2012, 10:00 PM
      #61
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bsms    
    The Chicago Way - The Untouchables (2/10) Movie CLIP (1987) HD - YouTube

    A bit tongue in cheek, but somewhat applicable.

    Also, little things count. Does she ever get fussy being led? Does she cooperate getting her hooves cleaned? If you stop her on a lead line, does she stop? Or does she kind of stop? We tend to think these are little things, but horses look at them and think, "The King is getting old. Maybe it is time to replace him..." You may need to get in touch with your inner King Henry VIII!

    I'm not a trainer. I'm not a pro. I don't compete in anything and my horses - all THREE of them - are works in progress. So take this with a big steaming cup of FWIW:

    The best time to deal with a kicker is before they kick. Find a small thing. Just lead the horse somewhere, stop them, and then start insisting they don't fidget. Fidgeting means going backwards or disengaging until they get the idea that moving around is unacceptable. Come armed. If a fight develops, be prepared to win. You have the advantage of picking the time and place, so pick it well.

    Horses don't start showing dominance by kicking out. Neither should you. Like them, start with little things. Start them when you've thought it out, and have a plan A, plan B, and plan C on how to win.

    If the horse starts to 'lose', it may back down. Or it may decide you've brought a fist to a knife fight. If it does that, you need to be ready with a gun. That is why you need to think things thru in advance, and pick a time and place where you are prepared to do what it takes to win.
    If any of you wanted to build a tower, wouldn’t he first sit down and work out the cost of it, to see if he can afford to finish it? Otherwise, when he has laid the foundation and found himself unable to complete the building, everyone who sees it will begin to jeer at him, saying, ‘This is the man who started to build a tower but couldn’t finish it!’

    Or, suppose there is a king who is going to war with another king, doesn’t he sit down first and consider whether he can engage the twenty thousand of the other king with his own ten thousand? And if he decides he can’t, then, while the other king is still a long way off, he sends messengers to him to ask for conditions of peace." - Jesus Christ
    Lol!!! Well I do have some Italian heritage!!!
         
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        12-24-2012, 11:38 PM
      #62
    Foal
    Whip

    A dressage whip is much more effective than a stick and string...try hitting yourself own the leg with it and you will see....

    My horse knows what it is...
         
        12-27-2012, 12:23 PM
      #63
    Super Moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sewsmarty    
    A dressage whip is much more effective than a stick and string...try hitting yourself own the leg with it and you will see....

    My horse knows what it is...
    The only problem is with a dressage whip is that you have to get in close to use it thus, unless you are extremely experienced, you can be in the danger zone.

    Bottle fed horses are generally lacking in respect of humans.

    As foals it is great for them to come charging up for their bottle and if they push and shove then it is easy to just push them away. They learn certain 'rules' like having a halter on, picking up feet and being led and brushed but they have not learned the correct tough manners a mare would give them.

    Watching mares with foals is a real learning curve for anyone who studies them especially if you have them in a herd environment.

    A mare will rightly protect her foal, however by the time it is a week or so old rules start to come into play.
    Majority of ares will stop a foal suckling when she is eating a hard feed. They will stand square making the udder difficult to get at, if the foal persists the tail will swish hard and the mare will move towards the foal sideways using her body to push it away. If the foal continues to try to suckle then the mare will snap her teeth at its backside or, swing her backside and use a leg to shove it away.

    Not many people have the savvy to realise this is all part of them learning respect or, to treat the foal in the same way, only giving milk when rules are obeyed.

    I have reared several bottle foals and took advice from a marvellous woman, Ann Vardon, who runs the National Foaling Bank in the UK, where she will try to match orphan foals with mares who have lost theirs and gives advice when this is not possible.

    I was very lucky in having a very maternal mare who would adopt any foal, she might not have the milk to feed it but she was the most wonderful 'nanny' and certainly taught the foals manners. It was funny because all the foals would go to her rather than their dams, they grazed with her, lay near her, only using their mothers as mobile milk bars.

    When you get a maiden mare with her first foal they are often lacking in discipline. Their foals can be very disrespectful and it will take another mare to put it in its place. This can be quite hard but it is part of nature and unless they learn the herd rules they are not going to get far in a natural life.

    I never want a horse to be afraid of me, however, I do want its respect and if that takes cracking it one with a whip or whatever is to hand, then I will do so. They are not stupid!
    When I had eight 2 & 3 year olds in a large loose shed they all knew they could come behind me as I put the feed into the long trough but to barge me or get ahead would invoke my annoyance. One evening one of them tried shoving me hard. That was it - he got the bucket of feed wrapped around his head whereby he turned to double barrel me.
    I was livid at his audacity and they all knew it!
    The seven moved away from the feed trough and stood in a corner whilst I chased the culprit around the shed, throwing the feed bucket between his legs and cussing him. The seven would not let him into their corner and until he showed signs of submission I kept the pressure on.
    I picked up the remains of the bucket and mixed more feed and went back to feed them again. The horses stood well back and, when he went to follow behind me one of the others chased him off - he was only allowed to follow on at the end of the line.

    Not one of those youngsters was worried about me getting 'mad' they knew it wasn't for them, they knew that he had done wrong and deserved his chasing. He also knew what it was for and that it was fair.

    This horse has lacked discipline from the word go. She will need sorting by an experienced person and life will have to be very tough for a few weeks until she learns what life is about.
         
        12-27-2012, 02:01 PM
      #64
    Weanling
    I've never dealt with a horse nearly that aggressive. But here are a few thoughts:

    1. I think you need to work with someone who's successfully dealt with this before. There is certainly some good advice on this board, but applying it isn't the easiest thing. If the horse doesn't react the way you're expecting, what will you do?

    2. I'm not at all against spanking a horse that deserves it. But please be careful you don't injure the horse. I don't think anyone is advocating risking an injury, but I think if you took some of this advice the wrong way, you could end up with injuries. That's all I'll say.

    3. I agree that it's best to be firm, rather than overly physical, from the beginning, but you're probably beyond that point with this horse. At the same time, you don't want to let your emotions get the better of you during a "meeting." You will need to kick that horse's ass. How you do it will determine how well it works.

    4. Any corrections need to be quick. Smacking a horse 30 seconds after it's bit you or whatever won't help.

    5. You'll also want to think about what led your horse to this point in the first place so that when your horse is rehabilitated, it doesn't slide back into old behaviour. You'll need to be the herd leader, and make sure all the horses respect you even during the pasture, feeding time, etc... The horses should move out of your way with minimal physical contact (or no physical contact). They don't need to be afraid of you, just respect you.

    You don't sound like a green rider or anything, but you probably need some help on the ground. I think most people would in this situation (myself included).

    Best of luck. Let us know what happens.
    Muppetgirl likes this.
         
        12-27-2012, 07:49 PM
      #65
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Just Ruthiey    
    I'm slowly learning that she is going to need a good smack or a push... I just haven't ever had to do that with any of my horses, ever.

    I don't even use a lunge whip, and I use the crop for aids.

    It just kind of breaks my heart I've got to do it I guess :p
    One advantage of a lunge whip over a riding crop is that when her butt is towards you and she is kicking the lunge whip is able to reach her and smack her without you getting in range of her hooves. A crop will put you in a dangerous situation if you try and smack her while she is kicking. I prefer to carry something longer with a horse that kicks. Just a thought for you.
         
        12-27-2012, 08:09 PM
      #66
    Green Broke
    Lots of advice here. Some may work... some may not work.

    Quite honestly, the best advice came from Ian. Get someone to deal with this horse that will help you both. He advised you to find Buck Brannaman. I think he is right (and has advised you to seek someone known and trustworthy).

    You need someone there to see the horse, read the horse, read you and sort it all out.

    I could advise you to lay into this horse and that may, in fact, the the answer. Then again, I have known a horse that if you DID lay into him (and he was a gelding) he would up the ante and try to kill you outright.

    I could advise you on a lot of things to do.. but without seeing the horse and as dangerous as she sounds.. I would be talking through my hat and you could get hurt or the horse could get hurt or you both could get hurt (or killed).

    Take Ian's advice. Get a known pro on the case if you are determined to solve this. If you cannot do this, save yourself and send her on down the road.

    As she is now, she is a large liability.
    LisaG likes this.
         
        12-27-2012, 08:16 PM
      #67
    Weanling
    And this is exactly why, when I go into the paddock I get every horse to respect my space if I walk past them... They move for me not me move for them. Im not a expert or am I very experienced, but I have never been kicked by a horse in my life, so how I get other horses to move away from my pressure has kept me safe. ! That horse sounds like a nightmare, like a vicouse dog. Sorry if I was offensive.
         
        12-27-2012, 11:12 PM
      #68
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by OliviaMyee    
    And this is exactly why, when I go into the paddock I get every horse to respect my space if I walk past them... They move for me not me move for them. Im not a expert or am I very experienced, but I have never been kicked by a horse in my life, so how I get other horses to move away from my pressure has kept me safe. ! That horse sounds like a nightmare, like a vicouse dog. Sorry if I was offensive.

    I, knock on wood, feel the same as you about having your space, and I too have never been kicked.
         
        12-28-2012, 12:59 AM
      #69
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by toosexy4myspotz    
    I, knock on wood, feel the same as you about having your space, and I too have never been kicked.
    Knock on wood aswell
         
        12-28-2012, 07:59 AM
      #70
    Green Broke
    Remember folks.. this is a bottle baby. That can make this a whole 'nother world of training, horse/human relationship and that is what needs sorting.

    If you go at this horse with a whip NOW you could be in a whole peck of trouble and make this a whole lot worse.

    Original Poster: GET A PRO WHO CAN HELP YOU HANDS ON.
    Kayella and LisaG like this.
         

    Tags
    dangerous, retraining, ugh

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