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A different kind of rearing thread...

This is a discussion on A different kind of rearing thread... within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category

     
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        08-24-2009, 05:45 PM
      #11
    Foal
    Thank you all for the advice.
    I would like to add nobody is riding him right now, I am just asking for suggestions.
    I probably should explain more about why he is at our house, my sister was going to use him for drill team. The young girl who rode him last year does not have too much experience and her parents didn't feel safe with him because he has done this. My sister is riding one of our other horses, as well as the owner.

    He is only at our house because he is not safe for any of them to ride and we haven't taken him back home since the start of the season, when my sister intended to use him.

    We have no intention of buying him or using him. We are fine having him as a pasture puff, unless another team members dad(who trains ranch horses) takes him.
         
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        08-25-2009, 01:16 AM
      #12
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ogledrillrider02    
    We have a horse at our house, he is staying here for who knows how long. The problem(s) are that he rears, he has gone over backwards before, and he also bucks sometimes.
    A horse that does any or all of this stuff is a horse that for some reason, doesn't respond "correctly" to pressure. The horse doesn't want to do any of these things, but there's something lacking in the training (if there's no pain involved) and so the horse must resort to instinct to find a relief from pressure it's not understanding. A horse's natural instinct is to fight pressure not to give in to it (as we want through training).....so this horse is going to instinct....because something is wrong.

    1) check for pain:
    -teeth- have the teeth been floated at least once a year? If not, there may be sharp points and having a bit in his mouth can cause major pain and the unwanted behavior
    -saddle- if the saddle doesn't fit the horse, if it's pinching the wither area or if the person saddling up the horse cinches up tight once, any of this will cause chronic pain flare ups that can cause unwanted behavior
    -rider- if the rider tends to pull, yank or jerk on the reins, or ride with tight reins...this will cause a horse to rear up to find relief from bit pressure, and usually it's the rider that causes the horse to fall over because the rider either pulls hard on the reins at the time of the rearing up or because the rider leans back or gets off balance and the horse has no choice but to fall over.

    2) If you can rule out pain 100% are absolutely positive that it isn't the issue, then it's rider error/lack of good training. The training has failed the horse and he's resorting to instinct to find a release. (see the reasons posted above under -rider-

    A horse needs to know that there's going to be a release of pressure if it's to respond as the rider wants. So, if the rider wants to go forward, and kicks the horse to go but also (maybe without thinking) pulls back on the reins (lots of people mistakenly do this)....this is total confusion to the horse and this causes a horse to rear.

    If the rider isn't balanced well and tends to hang on the reins too much, pulls on the reins too much, yanks the horse's head around, kicks or otherwise uses too much pressure..... all of this will cause utter confusion to the horse and cause him to rear up and buck and basically fight pressure....

    Quote:
    Some examples of times he has reared is when my dad was riding him before a competition for drill team and he stopped, when my dad asked him to go he reared and fell over sideways/backwards. I was riding him down a hill on the trails and at the bottom there was a mud puddle patch thing . He reared up and I jumped off before he did anything.
    Drill team....a sort of speed event....lots of riders tend to get heavy handed and this will cause some horses to rear or buck or whatever....too much pressure in the mouth....especially if you're using a shank bit. This is massive amounts of pressure in the sensitive mouth and it scares/confuses/frustrates the horse = rear up. Once the horse learns that when he rears he gets some form of relief (rider falls off, rider stops asking the horse for anything for a few seconds, rider offers no other alternative to a release of pressure)....rearing is now a habit and bucking goes right along with it.

    Quote:
    He is also very stubborn to a point of bucking if we try to get him to move.
    Stubborn to me, at this point, means that he's trying desperately to tell you that something is very wrong and he can't listen to you. He's not stubborn, he's not wrong. Anyone who rides him needs to be trained as to how to use the reins properly....light pressure. Use your seat and legs more, and your hands less (never pull, yank or jerk, always just take out the slack and use your legs to drive the horse forward...never kick, never jab with spurs, but use an escalation of pressure (squeeze, spank with rhythm, over under, never just a whack)

    Quote:
    Any advice?
    1) make sure it's not pain. Get a chiropractor. This horse has been flipping over so many times (once is enough) he's bound to of hurt himself physically and may have chronic pain due to this, or an ill-fitting saddle, etc.... Yes, chiros work wonders. I've seen it for myself.

    2) make sure the teeth are in great shape

    3) get a saddle that fits properly...or if the saddle does fit, make sure it's not jacked up tight once, but rather, cinch it up soft and again and again, about 3-4 times (walking the horse in between times) and then mount up.

    4) get a trainer to retrain this horse to soften and give to pressure and get that trainer to give you and your dad (or whoever is going to ride this horse) some training lessons as to how to use pressure properly.

    5) please don't bonk him on the head with anything. This is old school crap that should be put to rest like bucking a horse out. There are better ways that work,....like treating the horse with a little more dignity. He's not a dumb animal that likes to rear up to scare you, he's scared/confused/frustrated/in pain...one of those or all of those....and he's desperately trying to tell you that he needs help. Teaching him to flex and disengage his hips (moving the hips over, to cross the hind feet) and to bend bend bend...to soften the body and get his mindset to where it should be....wanting to figure out where the release of pressure is (his reward for listening to the rider)....instead of fighting.....that's all he wants.

    Better communication. That's all it takes.

    I've retrained enough rearing horses to know that this humane approach works and it sticks. It's just about giving the horse a better alternative to his natural instincts. That's it.

    Training vs instincts. He's got to listen to one or the other. Depending on how good the training equals which one he'll listen to.
         
        08-25-2009, 09:32 AM
      #13
    Trained
    Great post Calamity Jane!
         
        08-25-2009, 12:13 PM
      #14
    Guest
    Calamity Jane has given you just about all the advice you could need. But she didn't ask you the 50$ question - why do you want to ride a horse that is known to rear - indeed so high that it has come over backwards?

    That horse weighs 500 kilos say 1100 lbs and if it falls on you, then you will "dent" at best, "break" at worst.

    If you could find some professional to do the rehabilitation for you, then maybe it might be worthwhile for the horse's sake - but would it be cost effective to you?

    There are tens of thousands of horses out there looking for good homes. Find for yourself and your friends a nice one and give it a good home. By nice one incidentally I mean: no rearing, no striking, no double barrelled bucking, no biting, no bolting, no balking and one easy to catch in a big field.
    It can be any colour, it can be any breed; it's mostly easier if it is a gelding and it must have four legs. It's favourite if it comes up to you and licks your hand with a big slobbery tongue.
    But whatever - it must not be classifiable as "lawless".

    Let this poor chap eat the grass - he is happy that way.
    There's a reason for his bad behaviour and maybe one day you might find out - but don't bet on it.

    Life is too short anyway - don't make it any shorter.

    Barry G
         
        08-25-2009, 04:41 PM
      #15
    Trained
    Before our government got involved there used to be a place to take these kind of horses where they could be put to use( with boulubaise and a nice red wine) but now they just get neglected to death or hurt someone and get put down. It's best to cut loses sometimes and find something more suitable.
         
        08-25-2009, 05:59 PM
      #16
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Barry Godden    
    Calamity Jane has given you just about all the advice you could need. But she didn't ask you the 50$ question - why do you want to ride a horse that is known to rear - indeed so high that it has come over backwards?

    That horse weighs 500 kilos say 1100 lbs and if it falls on you, then you will "dent" at best, "break" at worst.

    If you could find some professional to do the rehabilitation for you, then maybe it might be worthwhile for the horse's sake - but would it be cost effective to you?

    There are tens of thousands of horses out there looking for good homes. Find for yourself and your friends a nice one and give it a good home. By nice one incidentally I mean: no rearing, no striking, no double barrelled bucking, no biting, no bolting, no balking and one easy to catch in a big field.
    It can be any colour, it can be any breed; it's mostly easier if it is a gelding and it must have four legs. It's favourite if it comes up to you and licks your hand with a big slobbery tongue.
    But whatever - it must not be classifiable as "lawless".

    Let this poor chap eat the grass - he is happy that way.
    There's a reason for his bad behaviour and maybe one day you might find out - but don't bet on it.

    Life is too short anyway - don't make it any shorter.

    Barry G
    Again we don't want to ride this horse, but we do not habe a lot of leftover money. We have enough to take care of all our horses and give them what they need. But one less horse makes a big difference in the bills. I just want to give him the best chance at life, if it is more likely to find him a riding home then we want him to be safe for other people, we aren't going to sell him or give him away to someone unaware of this or who can't handle it. We are not going to pay for someone elses horse's training. Again we don't have a lot of leftover money. Me and my friend both have amazing horses that are great at drill team. We don't need or want another horse.

    To repeat, I just want this horse to have the best possible life... He might be going to an excellent trainer/rider, or back to the owners to be a pasture puff.

    We do not want to train him for us and he is NOT being ridden at all. Just looking for tips
         
        08-26-2009, 01:20 AM
      #17
    Trained
    If you have no intention of riding him, and the owner is willing, list this horse, and his issues somewhere, and find him an owner who IS capable of fixing him...he could probably do with the time off right now, but either way, he needs to find someone who knows how to address these issues without confusing or frustrating him more. Be totally honest with potential buyers, because you don't want someone to buy him, and get hurt because they don't know about it...list him as a project horse, and disclose what you know. Someone will come along...I would but I'm in AZ...Lol!

    My Appy was the same way when I got him (well, no buck) but the rearing; and he was doing it because he didn't understand "go" very well, especially when asked to go away from the paddock, nor did he understand what bending and flexing were, or how to properly react when I gave that pressure. He's not offered a rear since I got him to understand bending and flexing (ground first), and doesn't do it when I ask him to go either...chances are this guy just needs alot of ground work, on bending, flexing, and learning that 'go' means go.
         
        08-26-2009, 07:06 AM
      #18
    Guest
    Ogledrillrider
    Apologies - I misunderstood your meaning in the first post.

    I feel sad to meet a horse which has started to rear as an evasion - usually there is a good reason but often it is hard to discover.
    I wish you luck in finding a suitable home for him.

    Barry G
         
        08-26-2009, 05:55 PM
      #19
    Foal
    ^^It is ok, I also hope we can find him a good home

    Mom2pride-The owner is willing to find him a new home, he just doesn't feel comfortable selling a possibly dangerous horse. He knows someone could handle it, he just is worried someone will get hurt, I think that he doesn't want to always have that on his mind. Again we might have someone who is a great trainer and rider and hopefully the horse will go to him.
         
        09-09-2009, 05:43 PM
      #20
    Weanling
    My horse used to refuse to move forward and rear when asked to move because she was really tender-sided from being "cowboyed" around a lot, and what I did to cure her of this was instead of using seat cues then moving on to leg cues, I would use seat cues then move on to a smacking her on the butt with a rope softly and rythmically, slowly increasing tempo until she moved forward. That helped her a lot. Also, as far as a response when the horse has already reared, what I do is wait until their front end touches down and then make them disengage their hindquarters right away. I would never reccomend backing them up after rearing, as that tends to feed the up-and-back thing.
         

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