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does parelli really work?

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  • Parelli reinforcement
  • Horse training negative reinforcement - pareli

 
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    05-08-2008, 11:23 PM
  #11
Foal
Huh, hard for me to describe my opinion about PNH in english ...
I think it is a good way to be with horses, but not even to ride. It's a completly different thing to reach a "level" to ride in dressage by parelli or on the classical way. There is a lot work and a long time before you can start to ride the horse in a correct way and also built up muscles to carry you on it's back for a long time without damage and degradation (sounds hard, but I don't know how to discribe it otherways). You have to know if you are set to spend this long time, especially when you have to work without a trainer and learn it by your own. You'll do many mistakes and it'll take time to find them, if there is nobody who can shorten it by telling you. You have to make this experiences on your own. It also needs a strong willing an an iron resolve. And it is a really!!! Strict way, you can do it by no means at all. It doesn't work if you do it halfhearted.
I have decided for my own that I do it on my own way. I think there is to much pressure in the method, up to 100% of negative reinforcement. I know a lot of really great PNH People and some instructors too and I think most of their horses just works. The owner ask for something and the horse will do. It's a really one-sided communication. I want a real dioalog with the horses, I want communication, query, emotion and exibility, not a working horse like a machine. Please don't take my opinion for personal, PNHler ;) I wouldn't have a horse which follows unconditionally, I want a horse which tells instinctive if I'm competent and if I'm right. I want to give my horse a chance to make mistakes without bad consequences. On the parelli way you'll stop the negative influence if it is right. I think it's better to do something positive when the horse is right, and not to stop the "bad" things when it is right. (oh my good, does anyone understand what I want to say?).
Ok, I felt respect for everyone who does parelli with a happy looking horse, but I't not my (own) way.
Sady
     
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    05-09-2008, 12:34 AM
  #12
Started
Parelli is absolutely incredible! I LOVE the program. Whatever dream you have Parelli can help you achieve.

I will disagree with the statement that Parelli does not work for the riding aspects. I used to show my now semi-retired Levels horse in western speed events and english pleasure classes and we always placed. The riding aspects.....as well as the ground work.......are your FOUNDATION. If you don't have the foundation, the fancy stuff will not turn out good. You need "the cake before the icing" as Pat puts it. Also, this is about putting your principles BEFORE your goals......and the goal is showing in this case.

With my new horse, he has all the potential to be a great dressage and hunter horse. But I refuse to put my goals before my horsemanship. Because if I get the relationship and foundation right, the fancy stuff will be easy, light, and harmonious.
     
    05-09-2008, 02:48 AM
  #13
Yearling
Positive reinforcement doesn't work as well with horses, because they are not like dogs--they don't work for praise. They want comfort (safety) then food. That's why creating pressure (negative) then releasing (the positive) works so well with them--you are letting the horse find it's own comfort.
This doesn't mean the horse becomes a machine if it is done right. My horse loves his job, works with me and listens and concentrates, and doesn't ride like he shut his brain off. It means the horse knows how to find comfort... it's almost like he has trained me! 'if I do this, she will leave me alone!' My horse walks up and puts his own halter on (I just hold it) and I ride him until he's tired every day, and he loves every minute of it. Don't ever think that having a consistent horse means riding a machine. I imagine our relationship as a professional working one--he comes out and does his job (loving it is a bonus) and then he gets petted on and groomed and goes back out. I'm not very lovey dovey or treat happy, and I believe my horse thanks me for it.
With that being said, I think Parelli makes your horse a friend, not a coworker. And sometimes when you ask your friend to do something (like... oh, make you a sandwich) your friend goes, 'How about no?' That's why I think the riding aspect isn't good for high level showing. If you only want to do some local breed and/or 4H shows, your horse will be consistent enough to place and maybe get some firsts--but I don't think its good for more serious showing (out of state, national, etc.). When you're riding at the Congress (or some big national hunter/jumper show) you don't want your horse to decide he doesn't want to do something!
     
    05-09-2008, 03:29 AM
  #14
Foal
@Mayfieldk
I can only speak about the ones I have seen around me and that's my impression. If you or everyone else found a good foundation, perfect :)

And I have to smile a bit about your comment on positive reinforcement. I'm sorry, but this is not right, absolutely not right. It has nothing to do with horse or dogs, positive reinforcement works with every kind of mammalian, And it works absolutely great with horses, my horse is a good example for it and I know sooo much other examples. I don't know who had tell you. If it doesn't work, it's depending on the trainer ...

Sady
     
    05-09-2008, 08:20 AM
  #15
Trained
My experience with any of the well known training videos (Parelli, Clint Anderson, etc) has been that they can be good sources of ideas and techniques, but that each horse is indeed different and except for the foundation items, you need to find/combine/modify to find what works for your horse. Remember (and not to be critical of them), you are watching successes, and they are in the business of making $$s. Take a simple example...ground tying. My experience is that it is fairly easy to ground tie a horse in a round pen or dry paddock...and they will stay put and well behaved. Try taking that same horse into a lush pasture or in a group with his/her buddies and see what happens.
     
    05-09-2008, 09:11 AM
  #16
Green Broke
I got into Parelli a few years ago, but was really discouraged when talking to him at a clinic.

He stated quite bluntly that in his opinion your horse was either a Parelli horse or a show horse - and to expect to not place as well in a class as you could/would if you weren't on his program..."But you know you did good, so it's ok" :(

After that, I just couldn't justify spending the $$$ on his methods - although I will say that I still use some of the groundwork techniques.
     
    05-09-2008, 11:22 AM
  #17
Yearling
No, positive reinforcement does not work on every animal. It works on dogs, people, and other predator animals because they are naturally praise oriented, they want to work in a group or pack and do good. Horses, and many other prey animals, are physically not this way. They want COMFORT first. Example: How do you ask your horse to go? You squeeze/tap his sides. It doesn't matter if you say 'good boy' or not after he walks on--the only reason he moved was because you released the leg pressure, not because you praised the horse.
It is a nice idea to think that every animal works with positive reinforcement, but it just is not so. And it's not what I think; it's how most prey animals are hardwired. You say your horse is a good example--can you ride your horse without a bit, bridle, saddle--absolutely nothing, no ropes? And direct him only with voice, or maybe a simple touch? I'm not trying to sound mean but I doubt you can; to work through SOLE positive reinforcement would mean you cannot ride a horse with a bit; that works by negative reinforcement. So does a halter, spurs, leg pressure, ect. The horse gives, the pressure goes away. That is negative reinforcement training. And it works well for a reason; horses do not want praise or petting, they want comfort. Which is to be left alone (ie, why the majority of horses would rather say in a pasture then be bothered with people!). There is nothing wrong with this kind of training, it's just that people sometimes think it's wrong because people think horses are like them; people think horses want, crave, and need praise, because people do not like doing jobs without praise (words, touch, money). Simple fact of the matter is, horses are not people. Horses are not predators. There is nothing wrong with the way they are being trained, and you don't have to beat your horse with anything to get it to do things. If you go through the steps logically, your horse will rarely fight because you taught him well.
     
    05-09-2008, 11:37 AM
  #18
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by mayfieldk
No, positive reinforcement does not work on every animal. It works on dogs, people, and other predator animals because they are naturally praise oriented, they want to work in a group or pack and do good. Horses, and many other prey animals, are physically not this way. They want COMFORT first. Example: How do you ask your horse to go? You squeeze/tap his sides. It doesn't matter if you say 'good boy' or not after he walks on--the only reason he moved was because you released the leg pressure, not because you praised the horse.
It is a nice idea to think that every animal works with positive reinforcement, but it just is not so. And it's not what I think; it's how most prey animals are hardwired. You say your horse is a good example--can you ride your horse without a bit, bridle, saddle--absolutely nothing, no ropes? And direct him only with voice, or maybe a simple touch? I'm not trying to sound mean but I doubt you can; to work through SOLE positive reinforcement would mean you cannot ride a horse with a bit; that works by negative reinforcement. So does a halter, spurs, leg pressure, ect. The horse gives, the pressure goes away. That is negative reinforcement training. And it works well for a reason; horses do not want praise or petting, they want comfort. Which is to be left alone (ie, why the majority of horses would rather say in a pasture then be bothered with people!). There is nothing wrong with this kind of training, it's just that people sometimes think it's wrong because people think horses are like them; people think horses want, crave, and need praise, because people do not like doing jobs without praise (words, touch, money). Simple fact of the matter is, horses are not people. Horses are not predators. There is nothing wrong with the way they are being trained, and you don't have to beat your horse with anything to get it to do things. If you go through the steps logically, your horse will rarely fight because you taught him well.

This would explain why Dumas could really care less when we praise him! He just wants to be left alone.
     
    05-09-2008, 12:47 PM
  #19
tim
Weanling
Nice post mayfield.

A lot of people get negative reinforcement and punishment mixed up. They're not the same. Negative reinforcement, like positive reinforcement, is used to encourage a certain behavior. Punishment is used to discourage behavior.

Negative reinforcement is defined as the removal of unpleasantries when a desired behavior is exhibited. An example of this with humans happens all the time in jail. When inmates behave well, they might get a shorter sentence.

Punishment is the addition of unpleasantries when undesirable behavior is exhibited.

Positive reinforcement of course is praise for good behavior. Its the addition of pleasantries.

I think mayfield is correct when she says that most of the cues we use on horses are based on negative reinforcement. The twist is that we provide the unpleasantry before we give them the opportunity to have it removed.

Parelli is probably one of the biggest advocates of negative reinforcement in the horse industry. Just about all of his techniques involve a gradient of unpleasantry which is removed when the horse responds favorably. As the horse learns, he begins to drop the intensity of the unpleasantry he provides.

ANY SMART HORSE PERSON USES THIS TECHNIQUE. It doesn't matter whether you use Parelli or you use other techniques. I just don't see the difference. When you strip away all the surface appearances, the techniques are founded on identical principles.

The whole universe works this way. You can even examine human social dynamics closely enough to recognize the laws of physics at work.

Sure you can all claim that Parelli is a truly enlightened horseman and he never hits his horses maliciously, and that his techniques are revolutionary and progressive -- but then so am I, and so are the rest of us.

It's all the same.
     
    05-09-2008, 04:26 PM
  #20
Yearling
I think finding the right training method for horses is just as difficult as fitting a saddle or shoe. Every horse is different, and every horse has different needs. Not every horse uses an "average" saddle tree as "average" is only that makers opinion of average. The same goes for training, ever clinician's opinion is that their method works best because it does, for them but their methods might not be best for my horse or my needs or even within my abilities.

Parelli works for two of our horses, and Parelli does not work for another one. My barn manager does Parelli too. Parelli does NOT work for her yearling Tia at all, but it works extremely well for the other yearling named Lacey. It is different for each horse, some horses do not see humans as one of them at all. There for they have a hard time realizing the fact that we are speaking horse while they think we're just being humans! For those horses parelli will either not work at all, or not work at first.

Edited For; SPELLING
     

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