domonate filly with kicking habit...
 
 

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domonate filly with kicking habit...

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  • Habitual horse kicking
  • Domonate couple

 
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    11-23-2009, 05:59 PM
  #1
Foal
domonate filly with kicking habit...

My friend, Beth, has a 3 year old Quarter Horse filly she purchased from a lady about 4 months ago; the previous owner raised, spoiled and did little training with her since she was born. The lady never abused her, I know her personally and she babies all her horses as if they could do no wrong, and let them get away with stuff they shouldn't. Nothing seems to scare this filly, she is very lazy and refuses to even move out in a round pen or on a lead line at all; she just stands there and once she gets annoyed at you, she will turn her butt towards you and kick out a couple times. It is difficult to catch her sometimes because she will constantly poke that hind end in your face and threaten or kick at you. Ropes, whips ect don't phase her what so ever, she will just stand there and when you put pressure on she will ignore it and then gets pissed and fights back! She wont allow my friend to brush around her butt and if she tries, she will cow kick and even walking her is a challenge because she will lay her ears back and is very pushy. Her way or the highway!

Bethm wants me to help so I took 3 days and evaluated how she worked with the filly and she seems to be giving the filly the right signals but getting negative results... So I told her first thing first before I even agree to helping her; I wanted her to take her filly to the Veterinarian
to rule out any problem that may be causing her to be difficult and act out in a aggressive way when asked to do something simple. Told her to ask him to examine for ulcers or tumors, check her spinal column and vertebrae. Look for swollen or hot joints, lumps or bumps, sign of strains of any kind. And even though it may be odd, I noticed this little filly had some Impressive breeding in her so I personally talked to the veterinarian and asked the vet to rule out HYPP as well. Also asked him to check for any signs of hot spots or muscle pain and also check her hooves for infections of any sort. The Veterinarian isn't stupid and reassured me on the phone he would do a complete physical on her and to stop calling him with a new thing to check for... ha ha but I just wanted to add afew extra checks in there to be sure, I have learned to never over look something when there maybe even a slight chance to miss something you know? What was funny is, he made an extra copy of the results for me; even though the filly was not my horse, I think it was just so I wasn't calling him again She came back 100% sound witch I was very happy about but surprised!

So I agreed to help...
this little filly is alot different from the many I've worked with and when you ask her to move out and put pressure there, she ignores it. I started out with teaching her to respect my space and in disengage her shoulders, head, neck and shoulders witch she is getting better at. Then I took her in the round pen and I start out with body language, then voice command, then twirl the rope; I can pop it on the ground and even let it spank her on her hindquarters and still no response! I start out on a pressure scale and then increase the pressure till I get a response but once you get all the way to the top of the pressure scale and keep it up, she gets sick of it and decides "up yours" and will kick at you and if you step into her and keep it up after she kicks she will back up towards you and kick again and again. She just stands there and refuses to move her feet and when she gets tired of it, she will kick at you and turn her butt towards you. I do the pressure and release and do the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard; but this filly just don't want to listen and is the most stubborn horse I think I have ever worked with. I have no idea how to get her to move her feet and get her working in the round pen. I step behind parallel to her hindquarters and put pressure on to move out and when she steps even one foot in the right direction; I release the pressure for the reward and then ask for another step and I think she just gets tired of getting annoyed and will turn her butt in to me and when she is on a lounge line and she can't turn her butt completely towards me, she then tries to cow kick!

So, my question is.... How do I stop this kicking problem she has already learned to get away with? After the vet bill she can not afford a professional trainer and I personally have been working with horses since I was 15 and im almost 30 now started training full time 4 years ago at this stable but have yet come by a problem quite like Beth's her her filly. Advice greatly appreciated; id love to be able to help her out!
     
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    11-23-2009, 06:19 PM
  #2
Green Broke
What happens when you do tight circles on the ground? Jynxy had a brief moment where she thought maybe kicking me would be a fun idea, and was very sly about it. When I deal with horses like this, I prefer going to the root of the problem - when I walk up to you, don't you EVER turn your rear end to me. I stand directly at their side, facing over their back to put me in a completely "non-kickable" place. I hold their nose into my elbow, and I hold a whip in my free hand at their hindquarters. They are then tapped with increasing pressure until they yield their hindquarters to me by circling me. If you stay right on their side and don't allow them to get you in a bad position, they're stuck circling you as the only way to get away from the pressure - hence always moving their hindquarters away from both the pressure AND you.

Jynx is now to the point where all I do is tip her nose to me and she will immediately shift her entire body over and around me. It's extremely handy for thing like going into the pasture - she's become accustomed to keeping her head WITH me and moving the rest of her body out of my space and where it needs to go.

Using this method, I would for example, hold the leadrope in one hand and your whip in the other. Using your whip hand (hopefully the individual can accurately handled a whip while doing other tasks, it's relatively simple to learn), pet or brush her on the hindquarters. The moment she swings her hind end into you in an attempt to kick, immediately crank that head to your elbow and WHACK her on the rump with your whip. Her only choice of moving forward is to swing her hind end back away from you. I also loudly accompany this discipline with the word "QUIT".

In close situations like this, I greatly perfect using a crop with a LOUD popper on the end. The shorter it is, the better the pop that you give her us as using a Dressage whip or lunge whip in close quarters prevents you from actually building an adequete momentum. And the louder the noise and fuss you can make, the more prone she is going to be to actually pay attention to you.

If she's ignoring the physical side of pressure, try using scary pressure - a very loud, obnoxious and crinkly bag on the end of your whip for example, especially for lunging situations.

Hope you work something out.
     
    11-23-2009, 07:36 PM
  #3
Started
I would highly suggest doing the Parelli 7 Games with her. A lot of her behavior reminds me of how my warmblood acted when I first got him, and the 7 Games cured his feeling the need to kick out. I have a short clip of him kicking out at me when I was simply asking him to move his hind end over....thank goodness those days are gone! Lol.
     
    11-23-2009, 08:18 PM
  #4
Trained
You should never have a top to your escalation scale. When it gets to the point that you tap her on the rump, then you give her a smack that would be a 3 on a scale from 1-10 and do that a few times. If she still doesn't move increase it to 5, then 7, then 10 and if she still doesn't move go to 12. Increase the speed and the force. If she moves toward you with her butt move down to her hocks and really warm them up. I normally don't advocate whipping a horse that hard but if she is going to try to hurt me I will whip her as hard as I need to keep her from continuing in my direction. You should be able to keep her from backing into you if you have a halter and line on her by pulling her head around to you and making her disengage her hindquarters. I know many will disagree with my next advice but if you can't get her to move ith the whip then I would get a 5 foot piece of half inch PVC pipe and see if that made any difference. If that doesn't work then you might try a nice marinade and a grill.
     
    11-23-2009, 09:07 PM
  #5
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinshorses    
You should never have a top to your escalation scale. When it gets to the point that you tap her on the rump, then you give her a smack that would be a 3 on a scale from 1-10 and do that a few times. If she still doesn't move increase it to 5, then 7, then 10 and if she still doesn't move go to 12. Increase the speed and the force. If she moves toward you with her butt move down to her hocks and really warm them up. I normally don't advocate whipping a horse that hard but if she is going to try to hurt me I will whip her as hard as I need to keep her from continuing in my direction. You should be able to keep her from backing into you if you have a halter and line on her by pulling her head around to you and making her disengage her hindquarters. I know many will disagree with my next advice but if you can't get her to move ith the whip then I would get a 5 foot piece of half inch PVC pipe and see if that made any difference. If that doesn't work then you might try a nice marinade and a grill.
marinade and a grill huh? No thank you, I think if she is that stubborn, she would be a little tough don't you think? And my friend Beth loves that pain in the butt, so I think she would be a little upset lol :roll:
Anyways, I have gotten so flusterated with this little filly I am at total aww at how much she will withstand and ignore. Whats crazy is, she knows how to disengage all her body parts away from me when I ask in a tight circle; knows how to back up on command but when it comes to you asking from a certain distance, she wont budge! So she knows what I'm asking of her, but she just don't care! The owner of the stables told me to try water balloons, or maybe a bull whip that has a loud cracking sound but from what I can tell... she still wouldn't do much. We was joking around yesterday and she told me to go get her cattle prod out of the shed and try it on her. But I think that was a joke; I don't think I could ever do that to her but then again... it sure gets cattle moving right?! Lol
I am the type of person that disagrees with the natural horsemanship methods; because if a horse is more than willing and threatening to injure you with kicking and striking out; a little zap on the bum bum would probably do them good! Is that harsh? I am not a person who would beat a horse sinceless like the old time cowboys did by any means so please don't take it that way. And I haven't ever had to do more then give a horse a good solid tap with a rope to get a horse to move out but this is a case no one at the stable has encountered!
     
    11-23-2009, 09:22 PM
  #6
Trained
What if you skipped the lunging and rode her? I had a horse that would NOT lunge in one direction. She would go fine in one direction but try to jump out going the other direction. I just started her without going the opposite direction. She was fine to ride each direction and would take both leads and turned into a fabulous horse but she wasn't much of a lunger.
     
    11-23-2009, 10:21 PM
  #7
Started
We shouldn't close ourself off to knowledge. If we do, we will never advance past a certain point. It just takes the right horse to show us how little we know and understand.
     
    11-23-2009, 10:46 PM
  #8
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spirithorse    
We shouldn't close ourself off to knowledge. If we do, we will never advance past a certain point. It just takes the right horse to show us how little we know and understand.
I agree, I just don't know how to get her past this. What is Beth going to do when she needs to get her filly's back feet trimmed? Have her buted or risk injury to the farrier?
     
    11-23-2009, 11:01 PM
  #9
Started
Work with her on a regular basis, every single day, on getting trust and respect. Use specific exercises to help with this....I have certain ones in mind, but it's from the Parelli program...don't know if you are interested.
     
    11-23-2009, 11:16 PM
  #10
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacabreMikolaj    
What happens when you do tight circles on the ground? Jynxy had a brief moment where she thought maybe kicking me would be a fun idea, and was very sly about it. When I deal with horses like this, I prefer going to the root of the problem - when I walk up to you, don't you EVER turn your rear end to me. I stand directly at their side, facing over their back to put me in a completely "non-kickable" place. I hold their nose into my elbow, and I hold a whip in my free hand at their hindquarters. They are then tapped with increasing pressure until they yield their hindquarters to me by circling me. If you stay right on their side and don't allow them to get you in a bad position, they're stuck circling you as the only way to get away from the pressure - hence always moving their hindquarters away from both the pressure AND you.

Jynx is now to the point where all I do is tip her nose to me and she will immediately shift her entire body over and around me. It's extremely handy for thing like going into the pasture - she's become accustomed to keeping her head WITH me and moving the rest of her body out of my space and where it needs to go.

Using this method, I would for example, hold the leadrope in one hand and your whip in the other. Using your whip hand (hopefully the individual can accurately handled a whip while doing other tasks, it's relatively simple to learn), pet or brush her on the hindquarters. The moment she swings her hind end into you in an attempt to kick, immediately crank that head to your elbow and WHACK her on the rump with your whip. Her only choice of moving forward is to swing her hind end back away from you. I also loudly accompany this discipline with the word "QUIT".

In close situations like this, I greatly perfect using a crop with a LOUD popper on the end. The shorter it is, the better the pop that you give her us as using a Dressage whip or lunge whip in close quarters prevents you from actually building an adequete momentum. And the louder the noise and fuss you can make, the more prone she is going to be to actually pay attention to you.

If she's ignoring the physical side of pressure, try using scary pressure - a very loud, obnoxious and crinkly bag on the end of your whip for example, especially for lunging situations.

Hope you work something out.
I was going to suggest the exact same thing, my BO does this all the time.
Really works, but you have you be ready the instant it happens and act fast and spin as fast as the horse is psychically capable of going.
     

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