Dropping the shoulder and on the forehand?? - Page 2
 
 

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Dropping the shoulder and on the forehand??

This is a discussion on Dropping the shoulder and on the forehand?? within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category
  • Symptoms going on the forehand when riddend
  • Heavy handed with inside rein

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    10-01-2011, 01:57 AM
  #11
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spyder    
As Elana said..go back to basics.
Wiggling the reins will not solve this problem as it has nothing to do with the reins but in the evenness of the action of the hind legs.
I only recommended the wiggling reins in case he was bracing against the bit. This helps them to lighten up in their mouth. It definitely will NOT solve the crookedness problem, that's why I recommended using lots of inside leg to help straighten the horse onto the correct path. Sorry if my wording was confusing...but I agree with you 100%! :)
     
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    10-01-2011, 09:10 AM
  #12
Green Broke
Ok I did get a video today but it was too long for youtube and I am no good at editing so I will try to get another one tomorrow. Hopefully I can convince one of my family to come out and do it for me so it is better quality.
     
    10-01-2011, 09:32 AM
  #13
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpersRule    
I only recommended the wiggling reins in case he was bracing against the bit. This helps them to lighten up in their mouth. It definitely will NOT solve the crookedness problem, that's why I recommended using lots of inside leg to help straighten the horse onto the correct path. Sorry if my wording was confusing...but I agree with you 100%! :)

A tense and braced horse, is due to the rider. Our horses reflect 100% of what we do in the saddle, they are mirrors. So if our horses are tense, then we need to rethink our approach or what it is that we are....or aren't doing...while in the saddle.

You never ride the face! Anyone who does, is incorrect.

As Beitre Herbert Siebel *I always spell his name incorrectly....* who is from the SPS who comes to my neck of the woods yearly to teach clinics taught me: Your seat rides the back end, your legs ride the ribs/spine and your hands ride *drum roll* the shoulders.

Go back to the Training Scale

Seat into Legs into Hands to Soften

~~~~

Of course, to no surprise to some *since I am considered Spyders Minion*

I am wholeheartedly agreeing with what she posted. I'd listen to her, she has climbed the ladder in the Dressage World up to the top, and is now a respected and well established Dressage Judge.
Kayty likes this.
     
    10-02-2011, 12:31 AM
  #14
Super Moderator
You need to use MUCH MORE leg.

You need a LOT more forward impulsion. You cannot 'lift' or 'pull' or 'wiggle' a horse's front end up. You get his hind end up underneath him with more impulsion, keep his from going faster and his shoulders will come up. If a horse elevates his shoulders and keeps his hind end up underneath him, you will be working toward actual 'collection'. Then and only then do you have something to work with.

Next, you need to work on getting control of his individual body part. You need to get HIP CONTROL. You need to be able to bring a horse's hips into the center of a circle while his nose is also tipped slightly to the inside.

You need to be able to keep his ribs out WITHOUT letting his hips move out. This, again, requires that you develop hip and body control.

When you have this kind of body control, a horse just does not drop a shoulder and surely does not fall heavy on the forehand. A horse that drops a shoulder and is heavy on the forehand is usually only showing symptoms of being ridden from his face back. It usually shows that the rider is not using their seat and legs to get the impulsion and the body control needed.

On another note, if the horse only drops a shoulder going one direction, it means that the horse has a 'stiff side' and a 'limber' or 'rubber side'. These need to be addressed by getting bend and body control on the horse's stiff side. He needs work on that side twice as much as the limber side. Then, he needs to be taught to circle with reverse bend -- particularly on the side that he usually over-bends and pushes out on. A stiff side and a limber side oftentimes go hand in hand.

I hope this helps. But, as mentioned before, it is a lot easier to see what is happening with a video.
     
    10-02-2011, 12:57 AM
  #15
Green Broke
Thanks cherie I am trying to do that. I always seem to end up with that problem of trying to get more impulsion. He sometimes gets lazy and when I ask for him to work more he takes that as simply having to speed up. Then I try to avoid getting all in his face because I know that will have the opposite effect of what I want. He does cut the corner a lot more on one side though it does happen on the other side occasionally too.

He also does not only do this with me. His old owner said he wasn't good enough for barrel racing because he wasn't fast enough. Which I highly doubt because he is a little speed demon. What he has done from the get go of me getting him is, he would go as fast as he possibly could in a straight line. If you gave him his head he would go flat out until he ran into something or if you put any pressure on the reins brace against you and just keep running. Then if you didn't come to a dead stop at the end he would drop his shoulder turn and go back the other way doing the same thing. A lot of people think he was probably one of those barrel horses who was simply run on barrels a lot then chucked out in the paddock. ( I met the previous owners, they seemed to be the sort wanting a safe ribbon winning horse) not trying to be judgemental or anything.

It has taken me a long time to get him to walk and trot and not feel the need to take off full speed ahead just because you asked him to turn or something.

Also I am really trying to get a video I will definitely have one up this week sometime, I just can't garuantee when exactly. Because I am by myself and might not have a lot of time to go for a ride. Thanks for bearing with me.
     
    10-04-2011, 09:08 PM
  #16
Foal
Ah, lazy horses are so wonderful, are they not? ;) haha. My horse does the same thing.

The shoulder issue: I would carry a little crop/bat in my hand. Try to support them by mentally picking up their shoulder. Look forward, put the inside leg on him at the corner and lift the inside rein. The best way is to do smaller circles everywhere. Sometimes I'll hold it until my horse lifts his shoulder and beds his ribcage around the circle, then I quit. If he blows his shoulder out on you when on the rail and turning, make him go do circles in that direction, keep with it until he gives and moves correctly. If he blows it out past your leg, pop him on the shoulder he's blowing with the crop. Always use the crop last, though.

Forehand issue: I'm not sure how you're riding, you might be fine and he might just be lazy. Which means you will have to work yourself that much more. It also might be hard for him to collect himself due to conformation. Usually a forehand horse is due to a heavy handed rider, however. Get lighter and more supple in your cues, using your body (leaning even before putting the leg on him for a turn, then rein as a last resort). Also, Imagine lifting his belly up. You will have to hold him at a walk/trot, wrap your legs around him, and just think "lift". It sounds really strange and I admit it's hard to describe, but your body usually figures out what the cue is. When your horse responds, you will feel his back lift up into you. He might get it confused with "faster" though, so it will take some trial and error on that part. To get his head to drop and get his hind end under him, hold him steady at a walk/trot, and use your seat and legs to "push" him forward into the bridle. It takes a lot of imagination to get these cues right, which is why I think so many people have a problem with it. Open up your hips (kind of stick your knees off of the horse) and tensen your own bum and squeeze him forward, but don't let your hands go all willy-nilly so he can get all sprawled out again. You should feel him get under himself and see his neck pop up, he should bend at the pole and have his nose tipped in slightly.

Practice makes perfect, and it actually takes a LOT of muscle for these things, so don't expect perfect results right away :)
     
    10-07-2011, 04:42 AM
  #17
Green Broke
Thanks for the tips. I had a ride on him this afternoon and I felt really good once we finished. He didn't cut the corners as much.

I will get a video tomorrow unless something happens or it rains like its supposed to. If not I will get one the next day.
     
    10-09-2011, 12:15 AM
  #18
Green Broke
Ok I finally got a video. It's only a short video as the camera was playing up. I am going to apologise in advance for my riding, I am not happy with it at all especially when I was cantering. I only cantered because my mum wanted to see and I figured a little canter would be ok. Be as nasty as you want to me just as long as you give useful tips on how to fix it as well. thanks

Also you may want to mute its just wind in the background.

     
    10-09-2011, 01:35 AM
  #19
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by apachewhitesox    
Ok I finally got a video. It's only a short video as the camera was playing up. I am going to apologise in advance for my riding, I am not happy with it at all especially when I was cantering. I only cantered because my mum wanted to see and I figured a little canter would be ok. Be as nasty as you want to me just as long as you give useful tips on how to fix it as well. thanks

Also you may want to mute its just wind in the background.

09102011021.mp4 - YouTube

He actually has decent movement. He is also not lazy nor is he that much on the forehand. The problem is you I think. You have not got yourself organized enough to ride out his gaits and be in control of them. I didn't see the angles well enough to confirm my original suspicion of him being crooked but he is running through the bridle. This is because as I mention you are not organized enough to be as effective as you need to be.

On horses of this type you need to ride a LOT more circles ( a lot smaller ones) and get him to slow down more naturally. Big sweeping turns and straight lines simply allows him to be in control. You need to have more consistent contact with him through your seat and reins as he is taking advantage every time you"are not there".

In your canter you are riding him in a forward backward movement when that gait is more lateral. In this your hips that should be swinging with his lead leg are stiff and you get bounced around. In the trot your posts vary in height and you fall forward. In the initial canter you leaned forward to get it and right from the start you were not in control. Same when you let him drop out of the canter...you did not RIDE him out of the canter.

The horse has hollowed his back so that in itself makes it difficult to "get into him" and again this stems form him running through the bridle and you lack of consistent contact.

Best advice is this.

Straight lines are a reward to the horse and they have the advantage.

Small circles and multiple changes of direction puts the rider in control and is punishment to the horse.
Kayty and Elana like this.
     
    10-09-2011, 01:58 AM
  #20
Super Moderator
The above post is exactly what I see, too.
Thank you for showing the video. He does have some go to him. Going to be fun to ride when you get you and him put together more.
     

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