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The Extreme Alpha Challenge!

This is a discussion on The Extreme Alpha Challenge! within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category

     
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        08-16-2010, 05:03 PM
      #21
    Foal
    So, I took some of your advice today (various people who responded to my initial questions in this thread).

    Someone said that I should just hang with him and build a relation ship. I have had this horse since the end of June. At first, I would just spend time with them. He would follow me around and try to bite me. So, I knew that I had to stop that. I decided to try and longe him and get him closer to having a job. A trainer came out to work with him one day. He longed him for 20 min and said this horse is a jerk and he acts like a 2 yo. If he grew up with a stallion and was allowed to get his way his whole life, you are going to have a lot of work on your hands. He told me to longe him and get tack on him right away. The trainer was very tough on the horse and told me that I had to be because this horse is soooo stubborn and dominant.

    When I visited him today, I had a "lead horse" walk, erect shoulders, looking forward, walking with purpose. I made him respect my space by not letting him crowd me. He respected my wishes. Then, I walked over to him, put the lead rope on him, walked off without looking back at him and then, asked him to whoa, and petted him when he did what I asked. Finally, I tied him and petted him gently with long strokes for 10 minutes. He just stood there quietly, moving only to shoo flies. When I released him he didn't try to bite! I don't know if that is progress. It is stressful to me to have to be that way. I like to be relaxed around horses and just let the relationship be natural. Will it always be this way?

    I really don't think that horse likes me???
         
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        08-16-2010, 09:55 PM
      #22
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Cadence    
    At first, I would just spend time with them. He would follow me around and try to bite me. .... He told me to longe him and get tack on him right away. The trainer was very tough on the horse and told me that I had to be because this horse is soooo stubborn and dominant.
    I was one of those to suggest you build a good relationship first, but that's not to say you allow him to boss you round & treat you like another horse. With a personality like this, as suggested, I'd be inclined to start from the other side of a fence & teach him 'manners' first. You don't have to be 'bossy' yourself, just consistent & firm & teach him what behaviours work for him(he's rewarded for) & what behaviours never work(he's not reinforced & there may be unpleasant consequences... such as no feed for 'rudeness').

    As for this trainer, everyone has different opinions & experiences. My own stem from studying behavioural psychology, equine ethology & behaviour, and working with, among others, with a number of 'damaged', 'untrainable', 'vicious', etc, etc... horses. I have come to believe attitudes such as this trainers, and the methods they tend to employ are unhelpful and often further damaging to the horse & his ability to become tractable. They tend to often further cement any negative attitudes & behaviours in horses of strong personalities. Then the horses get further labels as 'untrainable', 'vicious', etc....

    As I tried - possibly badly - to explain, I believe it is important to *avoid* being confrontational and aggressive yourself towards the horse - be it with direct physical punishments or attacks, or with the 'work' you 'make' the horse do. Instead, finding ways of making the Right things actually Good Things, so they 'work' for him and yourself. Instead of going into battle with him, find ways of giving him what he wants at the same time as doing as you want. Part of this is starting small & easy, not just rushing into lots of hard work. When you get as far as what you now perceive yourself as 'work'(if you think of it as that, how does he see it??), try to ensure it's actually 'play' for him.

    Of course, this is only my opinion, but that's all anyone can give you.

    Quote:
    When I visited him today, I had a "lead horse" walk, erect shoulders, looking forward, walking with purpose. I made him respect my space by not letting him crowd me. He respected my wishes. Then, I walked over to him, put the lead rope on him, walked off without looking back at him and then, asked him to whoa, and petted him when he did what I asked. Finally, I tied him and petted him gently with long strokes for 10 minutes. He just stood there quietly, moving only to shoo flies. When I released him he didn't try to bite! I don't know if that is progress. It is stressful to me to have to be that way. I like to be relaxed around horses and just let the relationship be natural. Will it always be this way?
    I think yes, if you're confrontational about it, it will always be that way. He may accept you today, but decide he's up for a challenge tomorrow. If you want to use the 'dominance theory' in practice, you'll only 'win' at the expense of his 'loss' and if he's so assertive & playful, you'll always need to watch your back. - On that note, I would not turn your back on him, walk in front of him, particularly at this point in time. You should be driving him, or at least leading from beside him. For one you can keep your attention on him & gauge when he may try something & secondly, alpha horses generally 'push' their herdmates along, so don't let him get more practice at pushing you around. If on the other hand, you quit challenging him, you should be able to develop a mutual arrangement.

    NB my attitude may sound all soft & fluffy, that I let horses get away with stuff, but I am quite firm & will not tolerate 'bad manners', etc. It's just that I approach it differently to some.

    Quote:
    I really don't think that horse likes me???
    I'm not surprised, as it sounds mutual & you don't seem to be trying to be liked. Sorry if that sounds harsh, it's just the way it seems from what you've told.
         
        08-16-2010, 10:36 PM
      #23
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by loosie    
    I was one of those to suggest you build a good relationship first, but that's not to say you allow him to boss you round & treat you like another horse. With a personality like this, as suggested, I'd be inclined to start from the other side of a fence & teach him 'manners' first. You don't have to be 'bossy' yourself, just consistent & firm & teach him what behaviours work for him(he's rewarded for) & what behaviours never work(he's not reinforced & there may be unpleasant consequences... such as no feed for 'rudeness').

    As for this trainer, everyone has different opinions & experiences. My own stem from studying behavioural psychology, equine ethology & behaviour, and working with, among others, with a number of 'damaged', 'untrainable', 'vicious', etc, etc... horses. I have come to believe attitudes such as this trainers, and the methods they tend to employ are unhelpful and often further damaging to the horse & his ability to become tractable. They tend to often further cement any negative attitudes & behaviours in horses of strong personalities. Then the horses get further labels as 'untrainable', 'vicious', etc....

    As I tried - possibly badly - to explain, I believe it is important to *avoid* being confrontational and aggressive yourself towards the horse - be it with direct physical punishments or attacks, or with the 'work' you 'make' the horse do. Instead, finding ways of making the Right things actually Good Things, so they 'work' for him and yourself. Instead of going into battle with him, find ways of giving him what he wants at the same time as doing as you want. Part of this is starting small & easy, not just rushing into lots of hard work. When you get as far as what you now perceive yourself as 'work'(if you think of it as that, how does he see it??), try to ensure it's actually 'play' for him.

    Of course, this is only my opinion, but that's all anyone can give you.



    I think yes, if you're confrontational about it, it will always be that way. He may accept you today, but decide he's up for a challenge tomorrow. If you want to use the 'dominance theory' in practice, you'll only 'win' at the expense of his 'loss' and if he's so assertive & playful, you'll always need to watch your back. - On that note, I would not turn your back on him, walk in front of him, particularly at this point in time. You should be driving him, or at least leading from beside him. For one you can keep your attention on him & gauge when he may try something & secondly, alpha horses generally 'push' their herdmates along, so don't let him get more practice at pushing you around. If on the other hand, you quit challenging him, you should be able to develop a mutual arrangement.

    NB my attitude may sound all soft & fluffy, that I let horses get away with stuff, but I am quite firm & will not tolerate 'bad manners', etc. It's just that I approach it differently to some.



    I'm not surprised, as it sounds mutual & you don't seem to be trying to be liked. Sorry if that sounds harsh, it's just the way it seems from what you've told.
    I think that if you only take in to consideration what I have shared with you it is likely to think that way! :) lol I have read everything I can get my hands on regarding horse behavior, body language and training. I have tried, had people watch, ask for advice and talk to trainers. People tell me it isn't me. They try to work with the gelding too and have trouble.

    I try to do things with this horse, talk nice, pet him, build a relationship. The reason why I came to this forum is because the minute I am nice and praise him, is when he tries to bite, kick or challenge. So, I have to spend soooo much time saying the same thing over and over to him: NO stop bitiing, NO Give me space, NO stop kicking...etc. When he listens I do tell him he is good. The thing is, he doesn't care if "I" think he is good!

    I need to know how to get him to LIKE praise as a way of me saying, "good keep doing that." and not turn around and do the misdeed, (seriously) five minutes later.

    I hope that I don't come across as an ogre. I don't walk around yelling at this horse but, I have found that I HAVE to be tough with him. I just want to know if I will have to be this tough every day. I want to know if a horse like this IS fixable.
         
        08-16-2010, 11:30 PM
      #24
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by kaydeebug    
    only time she is a pain when its time to ride. She becomes really hot. When I go to put the saddle on she pins her eyes back and turns her head. When I tighten the cinch she does it again. .... when I go to lope her and I give her a kick she pins her ears back so I get after her. But when its time to go in the arena she is so hot that she freaks out..
    This illustrates that words alone can only convey so much & are open to interpretation, because this reply gives me a rather different impression of your mare than the last ones did.

    The above gives me the impression that your mare's major problem is likely pain related. She is likely *reacting* to a painful saddle & trying to communicate to you that it hurts. The behaviour in relation to the arena may be from current experiences or due to bad experiences there in the past - physical or mental - so the association with it is 'sour'. Loping & tight turns, etc also require the horse's body to be in a different shape, of which a restrictive saddle may be blocking. I'd want to absolutely rule out/treat any causes of pain/discomfort before just trying to 'retrain' her. I would also see if her behaviour changes with a treeless or bareback.

    Trouble is, after much learning on my part(& having a horse who won't tolerate any discomfort) it seems that most stock standard saddles(& even many expensive custom made ones) are too narrow in angle &/or gullet &/or too long &/or have too much 'rock' for most horses, when they're in motion at least. Most saddles may actually fit the horse *either* at a standstill *or* while moving. And most people also seem to only understand how to 'fit' a saddle when the horse is stationary. Balance International have a heap of good info, pics, etc on their site if you want to learn more about saddle fit & horse comfort.
         
        08-17-2010, 12:17 AM
      #25
    Trained
    Firstly, I appreciate all we'll ever get here are bits of a whole story. Without knowing the situation, I know it's all open to interpretation, and I try to keep that in mind & not assume. No, I don't think you are an ogre of any kind, based on these posts, but I hope I haven't come across as one either, because I've basically disagreed with much of what you've said.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Cadence    
    the minute I am nice and praise him, is when he tries to bite, kick or challenge. So, I have to spend soooo much time saying the same thing over and over to him: NO stop bitiing, NO Give me space, NO stop kicking...etc. When he listens I do tell him he is good. The thing is, he doesn't care if "I" think he is good! ..........
    I need to know how to get him to LIKE praise
    I think his personality & whatever preconceived attitudes he's formed sound like 'retraining' him could be rather long-winded and will necessarily require very particular and utterly consistent handling, for a while at least. It sounds like you may be trying to be firm OR nice to him, or at least this is the way he may see it, and this inconsistency is likely part of the problem. Perhaps he sees it as taking turns in the 'dominance' game.

    Also another thing I get from the above is that you're confusing words, praise, perhaps grooming - what YOU perceive as nice for actual positive reinforcement to HIM. A positive reinforcement can be anything that is truly desirable for THAT animal at THAT time. Words or your happiness are not something that is actually desirable, a Good Thing. *Praise can become a 'secondary reinforcer' or 'bridging signal' - that is, you can train them to work for praise, but it's not an actual reward, so I think it clouds the issues if you don't yet understand the basics. So you need to reward him with things he actually wants.

    Food treats are the most generally effective & convenient reinforcer for most animals. I find it's also the only really powerful reinforcer for horses that are either abused or don't enjoy being touched by people for whatever reason, but that once you get the ball rolling & they find you to be a Good Thing, a good scratch or such often becomes nice for them and you can use this & other things that may not have originally been rewarding for them.

    Beginning lessons on the other side of the fence, you don't have to be 'bossy' OR nice. You can just be neutral & consistent. You don't have to be nagging him all the time about what not to do, just ensure that those behaviours NEVER work for him, don't earn him a treat. If you make it as easy as possible for him to do some 'right' things first, so he learns that he can earn - he learns that his behaviour governs when the rewards are forthcoming - he will start to actively try a whole gamut of behaviours to see what works & will quit trying behaviours that don't work. It's just a matter of sorting out what you want to reinforce and what you won't accept - such as mugging, dirty looks, taking food with his teeth, whatever. My horses will come screaming across the paddock to me, run right up & slam into reverse at the last possible second, to take one step back, because this is how I've taught them to 'say please', effectively.

    Once you have taught him the basics in a non-confrontational & safe manner, then he will far safer & nicer to be around with far less punishment/telling off. Of course you still need to pay attention and be as firm as necessary, but remembering to also be as nice as possible, the firmness should be a lot less in quantity and quality - far less confrontational & more about rewarding the Good Stuff he gives you.

    While I do things a fair bit differently to 'purist' Clicker Trainers; don't use a clicker, do use a fair bit of negative reinforcement(removal of pressure) & occasional punishment, etc, I think learning about Clicker Training is a great way to teach yourself to be skillful in use & understanding of behavioural principles. I don't think many of the specifics(such as food treats, clickers, etc) are what is important, but it's the principles that govern their use. Not sure if I already mentioned 'Don't Shoot The Dog' by Karen Pryor, a fantastic little easy to understand book by a dolphin & whale trainer of Seaworld & the founder of 'clicker training', but you can also get HEAPS of info just from Googling it.
         
        08-17-2010, 01:40 AM
      #26
    Banned
    I have tried all sorts of ways with the saddle, tried different saddle, different saddle blankets..... I guess she is just cinchy.... it happens.... and she is fine when I ride her. She shows no pain or anything... she shows no aggression I rode her down at club. Of course she was very cinchy and tries to bite you,.... but she wass calm tonight and easy going almost as if I had a new horse
         
        08-17-2010, 05:22 AM
      #27
    Trained
    Hi, so you've tried her bareback? Are you absolutely positive the other saddles that you tried were comfortable on her? How did you gauge this? Horses tend to put up & shut up with a lot, so just because she wasn't reactive at all times unfortunately doesn't mean there isn't a problem.

    Horses are not 'just cinchy' without a good reason. Perhaps, *assuming* the saddles themselves have been OK, the saddling process was too abrupt, the girth tightened too much &/or too quickly. Her attitude may not be about current practice either, but may be habitual from previous bad treatment. With considerate, positive training, you can change her attitude, so long as what you're doing now is not hurting her.

    Quote:
    she is fine when I ride her. She shows no pain or anything...
    I don't get this comment, considering your previous post - seems to be a contradiction?? I thought she had problems when loping her?
         
        08-17-2010, 02:46 PM
      #28
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by loosie    
    Firstly, I appreciate all we'll ever get here are bits of a whole story. Without knowing the situation, I know it's all open to interpretation, and I try to keep that in mind & not assume. No, I don't think you are an ogre of any kind, based on these posts, but I hope I haven't come across as one either, because I've basically disagreed with much of what you've said.



    I think his personality & whatever preconceived attitudes he's formed sound like 'retraining' him could be rather long-winded and will necessarily require very particular and utterly consistent handling, for a while at least. It sounds like you may be trying to be firm OR nice to him, or at least this is the way he may see it, and this inconsistency is likely part of the problem. Perhaps he sees it as taking turns in the 'dominance' game.

    Also another thing I get from the above is that you're confusing words, praise, perhaps grooming - what YOU perceive as nice for actual positive reinforcement to HIM. A positive reinforcement can be anything that is truly desirable for THAT animal at THAT time. Words or your happiness are not something that is actually desirable, a Good Thing. *Praise can become a 'secondary reinforcer' or 'bridging signal' - that is, you can train them to work for praise, but it's not an actual reward, so I think it clouds the issues if you don't yet understand the basics. So you need to reward him with things he actually wants.

    Food treats are the most generally effective & convenient reinforcer for most animals. I find it's also the only really powerful reinforcer for horses that are either abused or don't enjoy being touched by people for whatever reason, but that once you get the ball rolling & they find you to be a Good Thing, a good scratch or such often becomes nice for them and you can use this & other things that may not have originally been rewarding for them.

    Beginning lessons on the other side of the fence, you don't have to be 'bossy' OR nice. You can just be neutral & consistent. You don't have to be nagging him all the time about what not to do, just ensure that those behaviours NEVER work for him, don't earn him a treat. If you make it as easy as possible for him to do some 'right' things first, so he learns that he can earn - he learns that his behaviour governs when the rewards are forthcoming - he will start to actively try a whole gamut of behaviours to see what works & will quit trying behaviours that don't work. It's just a matter of sorting out what you want to reinforce and what you won't accept - such as mugging, dirty looks, taking food with his teeth, whatever. My horses will come screaming across the paddock to me, run right up & slam into reverse at the last possible second, to take one step back, because this is how I've taught them to 'say please', effectively.

    Once you have taught him the basics in a non-confrontational & safe manner, then he will far safer & nicer to be around with far less punishment/telling off. Of course you still need to pay attention and be as firm as necessary, but remembering to also be as nice as possible, the firmness should be a lot less in quantity and quality - far less confrontational & more about rewarding the Good Stuff he gives you.

    While I do things a fair bit differently to 'purist' Clicker Trainers; don't use a clicker, do use a fair bit of negative reinforcement(removal of pressure) & occasional punishment, etc, I think learning about Clicker Training is a great way to teach yourself to be skillful in use & understanding of behavioural principles. I don't think many of the specifics(such as food treats, clickers, etc) are what is important, but it's the principles that govern their use. Not sure if I already mentioned 'Don't Shoot The Dog' by Karen Pryor, a fantastic little easy to understand book by a dolphin & whale trainer of Seaworld & the founder of 'clicker training', but you can also get HEAPS of info just from Googling it.
    Thank you Loosie! :)
         
        08-20-2010, 05:13 PM
      #29
    Weanling
    I do not have time to ready everyone else's posts so I will just start here and answer your orininal post @OP.
    My horse, a 5.5 year old gelding, is the second most unyielding horse my trainer has ever met(the first being a stallion in Europe). My trainer is top level, and trains horses for grand prix. He is dominant and unyielding. He can be aggressive and can just try to run away. It has taken 5.5 months to get him to finally give in. In those five months, it would take thirty minutes to get his head down once. He would be lunged for 2-3 hours and still not give in, no matter how sweaty or tired he was. He'd buck, rear, bit, bolt, kick, and fight the vienna reins he was in. He flipped over a few times and dragged two trainers around(yes, he needed two trainers). FINALLY he has given in, and he is submissive and much happier . Now the training begins...

    Your horse doesn't sound too too bad yet. He, without a leader, will become much worse. The best thing to do would be to get a trainer but if you can't, here's some advice:

    You have to step in and be the lead horse, even though you smack your horse a few times, he thinks that he is the leader. Horses can take a lot, they beat eachother up waaaay worse than we do. You need to show him who is boss, but only when it is necessary.

    Let's start with leading: He should be walking at your side, with his head low on a loose rope. If you stop he should stop. SOooooo, start leading him and then stop. If he doesn't stop then you turn around and force him back twenty feet really fast. Then do it again, if walks past you again, to it again. Take the end of the whip and hit his chest. Don't whip his chest, use the end of the whip and do hard pokes to his chest. Once he is backed up put your hand behind his poll and push his head down, that is submissions. Then walk forward, he must keep his head down. Keep doing that until he listens.

    Now for picking hooves: If he doesn't pick it up, smack him on the shoulder and growl "lift". If he doesn't, hit him harder. He'll get the point. Once you have the hoof, if he tries to move it, give him a warning "growl". If he keeps moving it give him a good hard smack and try to keep holding the hoof, if he puts it down, just pick it up again. Keep doing that. If he bites you, get mad at him. What would the lead mare do if a "lesser" horse bit her?

    Now for lunging, I'm not sure you want to force your horse's head down quite yet, but loose vienna reins would help a lot but don't use them until he is listening to you and understands what they mean. If he stops and faces you then give a pull on the lune line and come around behind him and ask him forward again. Also, if you see him slowing down, growl "geeet up" and hit the whip against the ground. If he doesn't listen, growl again, step towards him and hit the whip right behind him. If he stops, crack the whip and send him forward.

    EDIT: The petting, loving, and treats comes after he respects you. None of that unti later.
         
        08-20-2010, 07:45 PM
      #30
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SPhorsemanship    
    I do not have time to ready everyone else's posts so I will just start here and answer your orininal post @OP.
    My horse, a 5.5 year old gelding, is the second most unyielding horse my trainer has ever met(the first being a stallion in Europe). My trainer is top level, and trains horses for grand prix. He is dominant and unyielding. He can be aggressive and can just try to run away. It has taken 5.5 months to get him to finally give in. In those five months, it would take thirty minutes to get his head down once. He would be lunged for 2-3 hours and still not give in, no matter how sweaty or tired he was. He'd buck, rear, bit, bolt, kick, and fight the vienna reins he was in. He flipped over a few times and dragged two trainers around(yes, he needed two trainers). FINALLY he has given in, and he is submissive and much happier . Now the training begins...

    Your horse doesn't sound too too bad yet. He, without a leader, will become much worse. The best thing to do would be to get a trainer but if you can't, here's some advice:

    You have to step in and be the lead horse, even though you smack your horse a few times, he thinks that he is the leader. Horses can take a lot, they beat eachother up waaaay worse than we do. You need to show him who is boss, but only when it is necessary.

    Let's start with leading: He should be walking at your side, with his head low on a loose rope. If you stop he should stop. SOooooo, start leading him and then stop. If he doesn't stop then you turn around and force him back twenty feet really fast. Then do it again, if walks past you again, to it again. Take the end of the whip and hit his chest. Don't whip his chest, use the end of the whip and do hard pokes to his chest. Once he is backed up put your hand behind his poll and push his head down, that is submissions. Then walk forward, he must keep his head down. Keep doing that until he listens.

    Now for picking hooves: If he doesn't pick it up, smack him on the shoulder and growl "lift". If he doesn't, hit him harder. He'll get the point. Once you have the hoof, if he tries to move it, give him a warning "growl". If he keeps moving it give him a good hard smack and try to keep holding the hoof, if he puts it down, just pick it up again. Keep doing that. If he bites you, get mad at him. What would the lead mare do if a "lesser" horse bit her?

    Now for lunging, I'm not sure you want to force your horse's head down quite yet, but loose vienna reins would help a lot but don't use them until he is listening to you and understands what they mean. If he stops and faces you then give a pull on the lune line and come around behind him and ask him forward again. Also, if you see him slowing down, growl "geeet up" and hit the whip against the ground. If he doesn't listen, growl again, step towards him and hit the whip right behind him. If he stops, crack the whip and send him forward.

    EDIT: The petting, loving, and treats comes after he respects you. None of that unti later.
    Isn't that sort of abusive?
         

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