The Extreme Alpha Challenge! - Page 4
 
 

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The Extreme Alpha Challenge!

This is a discussion on The Extreme Alpha Challenge! within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category

     
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        08-20-2010, 10:06 PM
      #31
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SPhorsemanship    
    I do not have time to ready everyone else's posts so I will just start here and answer your orininal post @OP.
    My horse, a 5.5 year old gelding, is the second most unyielding horse my trainer has ever met(the first being a stallion in Europe). My trainer is top level, and trains horses for grand prix. He is dominant and unyielding. He can be aggressive and can just try to run away. It has taken 5.5 months to get him to finally give in. In those five months, it would take thirty minutes to get his head down once. He would be lunged for 2-3 hours and still not give in, no matter how sweaty or tired he was. He'd buck, rear, bit, bolt, kick, and fight the vienna reins he was in. He flipped over a few times and dragged two trainers around(yes, he needed two trainers). FINALLY he has given in, and he is submissive and much happier . Now the training begins...

    Your horse doesn't sound too too bad yet. He, without a leader, will become much worse. The best thing to do would be to get a trainer but if you can't, here's some advice:

    You have to step in and be the lead horse, even though you smack your horse a few times, he thinks that he is the leader. Horses can take a lot, they beat eachother up waaaay worse than we do. You need to show him who is boss, but only when it is necessary.

    Let's start with leading: He should be walking at your side, with his head low on a loose rope. If you stop he should stop. SOooooo, start leading him and then stop. If he doesn't stop then you turn around and force him back twenty feet really fast. Then do it again, if walks past you again, to it again. Take the end of the whip and hit his chest. Don't whip his chest, use the end of the whip and do hard pokes to his chest. Once he is backed up put your hand behind his poll and push his head down, that is submissions. Then walk forward, he must keep his head down. Keep doing that until he listens.

    Now for picking hooves: If he doesn't pick it up, smack him on the shoulder and growl "lift". If he doesn't, hit him harder. He'll get the point. Once you have the hoof, if he tries to move it, give him a warning "growl". If he keeps moving it give him a good hard smack and try to keep holding the hoof, if he puts it down, just pick it up again. Keep doing that. If he bites you, get mad at him. What would the lead mare do if a "lesser" horse bit her?

    Now for lunging, I'm not sure you want to force your horse's head down quite yet, but loose vienna reins would help a lot but don't use them until he is listening to you and understands what they mean. If he stops and faces you then give a pull on the lune line and come around behind him and ask him forward again. Also, if you see him slowing down, growl "geeet up" and hit the whip against the ground. If he doesn't listen, growl again, step towards him and hit the whip right behind him. If he stops, crack the whip and send him forward.

    EDIT: The petting, loving, and treats comes after he respects you. None of that unti later.
    I think you understand what I am going through. Lol Your advice speaks to my horses "mind set". So far, this week, all we are able to accomplish is just respecting and moving out of my space. I use body language to make him move or stay away. Then, I shift my posture say come near. Maybe next week I will try leading him again. I will try some of the things that you have suggested.
    Thank you !!!!
         
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        08-20-2010, 10:17 PM
      #32
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Nature2horses    
    Isn't that sort of abusive?

    It is sad to think that someone has to resort to such behavior. In a perfect world, I would have a gelding that someone socialized/trained properly. Unfortunately, there are some horses, that day after day, believe they are in charge. No matter what you do, they will challenge you as if challenging another horse with teeth, hooves, charging, bucking, and pawing out; every time you turn around! I am not the type of person to ever lose my temper with a horse but, I do watch how they live and interact in a herd type setting. What I am finding successful, is what the woman above describes. I am treating this horse like a lead horse treats a subordinate. Amazingly, as rough as it might sound, the gelding finally responds. He is not afraid of me. He just stops invading my space, trampling, biting..etc., The gelding finds this less confusing because I am speaking in a language that says loud and clear, YOU MUST STOP THAT AND BEHAVE! I am willing to do that, if I am getting results. Otherwise, if I can communicate leadership to this ultradominant horse, then, I am going to get hurt. I know that in time, my consistent leadership may win respect. Respect leads to a type of relationship. This may not be the squishy lovey relationships I have with my two mares, but, he is just a different kind of horse.
         
        08-20-2010, 10:49 PM
      #33
    Showing
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Nature2horses    
    Isn't that sort of abusive?
    I wouldn't call it abuse, but I'd say it's pretty harsh approach, which won't work for every horse. But some horses need you to be more strict, and with others you have to be very gentle.

    Cadence, I didn't go thru all posts so may repeat what already was said... Do you know how he developed all these bad habits?

    I had very tough 1st month feeding when I moved my girls. The BO let them do whatever they wanted and fight for the food, so... They tried to do what they wanted. I made them back off the feed (and me) by slapping the chest and saying firm "No" every time they tried to crowd me. I never used the whip though.

    Now with biting let him run into your elbow or the head of the whip when he tries to bite. In this case it'll be his choice to get what he gets, not you punishing him. And just be patient and consistent. Changes don't happen overnight (unfortunately ). Good luck with your boy!
         
        08-20-2010, 11:11 PM
      #34
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Nature2horses    
    Isn't that sort of abusive?
    Actually, with horses like mine and the OP's, it can be cruel to not do it. None of it is the horse's fault even though it is the horse being "bad". The horse is being a horse -a very dominant horse. Horses are always innocent, they aren't humans, they don't do anything for revenge or greed; they do it because it is their nature. What I mean by it being cruel not to train it and put it in its place is that in the end the person and horse will get injured. The horse will go on and get worse and worse until it is probably out of control and sold. A horse like that will rarely find a good horse, so in a way you would be hurting the horse in the future. It's also cruel because if the horse gets worse, the horse will need harsher communication.

    This "harsh" communication also doesn't necessarily have to be forever. Once the horse truly gives in, you should only need small corrections because the horse should know that if he doesn't listen he will be put in his place, so you do always have to be a leader. Once the horse has given in, you will still have to give it corrections, maybe more than with other horses though because some horses will test their leader more than others.
         
        08-21-2010, 09:47 AM
      #35
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by kitten_Val    
    I wouldn't call it abuse, but I'd say it's pretty harsh approach, which won't work for every horse. But some horses need you to be more strict, and with others you have to be very gentle.

    Cadence, I didn't go thru all posts so may repeat what already was said... Do you know how he developed all these bad habits?

    I had very tough 1st month feeding when I moved my girls. The BO let them do whatever they wanted and fight for the food, so... They tried to do what they wanted. I made them back off the feed (and me) by slapping the chest and saying firm "No" every time they tried to crowd me. I never used the whip though.

    Now with biting let him run into your elbow or the head of the whip when he tries to bite. In this case it'll be his choice to get what he gets, not you punishing him. And just be patient and consistent. Changes don't happen overnight (unfortunately ). Good luck with your boy!
    I do know how the behaviors came about. The previous owner was a friend who lives in Michigan. She had two horses, an Arabian mare and a QH that they THOUGHT was a gelding but in fact had cryptorchidism (sp??). The "gelding" bred the mare, Lady and she gave birth to Aries, the gelding I know own. He was first raised with his mother and then placed with his father a stallion when weaned. He grew up eating, playing and sleeping with the stallion. They didn't work with him until he was four. They hired a trainer to come out about 10 times. She backed the gelding (walk/trot). The previous owner, didn't tell me that she never cleaned his feet, lead him around, that he bites...she sold him to me as having no vices.

    I met the horse a year ago. He was and still is a curious friendly thing. I fell in love with him then. The difference is, at the time, when I met him I wasn't exerting my dominance on him. Now, that I ask him to lead, longe etc., he is aggressive and fights back.
         
        08-21-2010, 12:33 PM
      #36
    Started
    At least you can see from his history/lack of training that his behavior is perfectly normal.
         
        08-21-2010, 02:06 PM
      #37
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Cadence    

    I met the horse a year ago. He was and still is a curious friendly thing. I fell in love with him then. The difference is, at the time, when I met him I wasn't exerting my dominance on him. Now, that I ask him to lead, longe etc., he is aggressive and fights back.
    That is what happens, they can seem nice and sweet until you ask them to submit and then some will literally fight to their death. I'm glad my horse finally gave in, but I think there are some horses that was die before submitting to a human.

    My gelding wasn't aggressive at all to me, I could do whatever I wanted with him but sometimes he just wouldn't cooperate. To make a long story short I had him for 1.5 years after riding at an "inexperienced" stable that brainwashes all their riders. I bought my horse there and he was always a sweet heart. Then I moved to a new stable and a real trainer got on and then the fighting started. He'd let himself be ridden, lead around, pick up his feet, be caught, but he wouldn't submit, especially his head. I guess he felt in control if his head was up so that is why he was always ok. I would say it was my fault for not seeing it. Thank god I found a trainer that would help me even though they are $$$. My horse is quite different from your horse in the way that if he doesn't have to submit, he's not aggressive, he doesn't bite. He is always good if he is with other horses, so one of his main problems was being herd bound, and he didn't even think once about giving in to a human, until now.
         
        08-21-2010, 03:10 PM
      #38
    Showing
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Northern    
    At least you can see from his history/lack of training that his behavior is perfectly normal.
    I agree. I wonder how did they manage to trim him then if he doesn't know how to pick the hoofs?


    Well... You have a long tough road in front of you. The very good thing IMHO is he's not afraid of people, just being very dominant, so that should make it easier to deal with. Just stay safe and don't give up when you feel frustrated.
         
        08-21-2010, 03:28 PM
      #39
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by kitten_Val    
    Just stay safe and don't give up when you feel frustrated.
    Yes, be safe, horses can be very dangerous especially when they think they can treat you like a horse.
         
        08-21-2010, 04:47 PM
      #40
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by kitten_Val    
    I agree. I wonder how did they manage to trim him then if he doesn't know how to pick the hoofs?


    Well... You have a long tough road in front of you. The very good thing IMHO is he's not afraid of people, just being very dominant, so that should make it easier to deal with. Just stay safe and don't give up when you feel frustrated.

    That is a good question! I asked that of them, myself. They told me that the farrier was this great big guy with arms and legs like tree trunks. He just snatched up the foot and wedged it between his legs. The gelding never had a chance of getting it back until the guy was done trimming and sadly, they only trimmed once in a great while too. When the horses arrived their feet were long, split and the mare had an abscess. She still has cracks in her feet from their neglect! Grrr!

    I know I have a long road. If I get help from a trainer then I won't mind.
         

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