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The Extreme Alpha Challenge!

This is a discussion on The Extreme Alpha Challenge! within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category

     
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        08-22-2010, 12:24 AM
      #51
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SPhorsemanship    
    I think it depends on the situation, because if the horse knows what he should be doing, but doesn't want to, babying won't work.


    @the OP, what is the horse's experience with his hooves being picked up? Has he had a lot of it done or is it new to him? If it is new to him, then what the previous person said is the way to go, no getting mad at him for something he doesn't understand. With my horse, he had been picking up his hooves for three years and then he decided that he didn't like to pick up is left front hoof, and I knew that he knew better.
    This gelding knows what picking his feet up means and it isn't unpleasant. He does respond to smacks, vocal, "QUIT IT!!!" and body language. I can communicate that he did good by body language. I put the foot down, I don't drive him forward with the longe whip, I in essence release pressure.

    I don't know how to make this horse get it when I am happy with something he does using the conventional methods of saying, "Goood boyyyyy!" doesn't work. Petting in the places on their body that they tell you to pat doesn't work. Food just encourages him to be more mouthy and he bites and looks for more treats,.... He doesn't make the connection or care really. I can make him walk quietly and then he will whoa perfectly. I pet him on the neck and say goood boyyy and he reaches over to bite me. That is what this horse is like. Lol
         
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        08-22-2010, 12:26 AM
      #52
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Cadence    
    This gelding knows what picking his feet up means and it isn't unpleasant. He does respond to smacks, vocal, "QUIT IT!!!" and body language. I can communicate that he did good by body language. I put the foot down, I don't drive him forward with the longe whip, I in essence release pressure.

    I don't know how to make this horse get it when I am happy with something he does using the conventional methods of saying, "Goood boyyyyy!" doesn't work. Petting in the places on their body that they tell you to pat doesn't work. Food just encourages him to be more mouthy and he bites and looks for more treats,.... He doesn't make the connection or care really. I can make him walk quietly and then he will whoa perfectly. I pet him on the neck and say goood boyyy and he reaches over to bite me. That is what this horse is like. Lol
    I will take a video of me working with Aries and post it tomorrow if I can! :) lol
         
        08-22-2010, 12:50 AM
      #53
    Weanling
    Ok so he knows what you are asking him, then you are right to do what I told you first. He sounds quite aggressive, he is much different from my horse but similar to a small pony I worked with before. To me it sounds like a nippy, pushy horse that was never corrected and he obviously doesn't understand that he is supposed to submit to a human.

    No treats!!! That isn't good, you are right, it just gets them more energized and out of control. Now for this biting after you praise him, he should have been put in his place enough that he wouldn't even think about doing that.

    This is an important question: When he is with other horses, where is he in the pecking order?
         
        08-22-2010, 10:58 AM
      #54
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SPhorsemanship    
    Ok so he knows what you are asking him, then you are right to do what I told you first. He sounds quite aggressive, he is much different from my horse but similar to a small pony I worked with before. To me it sounds like a nippy, pushy horse that was never corrected and he obviously doesn't understand that he is supposed to submit to a human.

    Yes, that is true! From what the previous owner tells me, they had little contact with the gelding.

    No treats!!! That isn't good, you are right, it just gets them more energized and out of control. Now for this biting after you praise him, he should have been put in his place enough that he wouldn't even think about doing that.


    I may not be tough enough on him. I can smack him hard on the neck within in 2 seconds of him biting and the impression of NO! Only lasts 20 min before he is biting again.

    When I first got him and would try to lead him, he walked all over me, would randomly turn in front of me. So, I put the shank on and fixed that. I had to be mean...yank on the shank over his nose hard. Now I don't have to yank on it he leads quietly.

    I was longing him daily for 25 min w/t/c and he would pull his shenanigans everytime. I would us a shank over the nose and the longe whip on him. The severity of the correction went from mild on up until he performed the action I wanted. He knows what I am asking. He is thinking about whether he wants to do it. I also growl, and sometimes that helped.

    This is an important question: When he is with other horses, where is he in the pecking order?
    This is an interesting question. I have the gelding and mare on my property. I separated them, but they can see each other. His history with other horses: he was kept with his mom until weaning age. Placed with his father (a stallion) for a few years. The stallion got to be a problem (do you see the pattern here) and they sold him. They gelded Aries and put him back in with his mother. Aries and his mother moved here with me in late June 2010. So, I think he has been top dog for several years! Lol You bring up a good point. Maybe I can put him in a herd with other horses and let them give him an eye opener. I wonder if I can find something affordable. How much time would that take??? Three months or six months. ???
         
        08-22-2010, 11:00 AM
      #55
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Cadence    
    I will take a video of me working with Aries and post it tomorrow if I can! :) lol

    We have rain in NY ....no video today! lol
         
        08-22-2010, 02:03 PM
      #56
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Cadence    
    . So, I think he has been top dog for several years! Lol You bring up a good point. Maybe I can put him in a herd with other horses and let them give him an eye opener. I wonder if I can find something affordable. How much time would that take??? Three months or six months. ???
    This is a problem because if he is top dog with horses, he thinks he will be top dog with you. To get him to fully submit, the amount of force from a human would be abusive so I think the best bet would be to just keep him in line. The best best best thing ever would be to find an alpha mare that is more alpha than him, or even two alpha mares. Maybe that would mean bringing him to another stable or talking around because if he is forced to submit, there will be a huge change.

    About the biting and him biting you 20 minutes after a correction, that is perfectly normal for a dominant horse. He is testing you, he will always be testing you and every time he tests you, you have to pass that "are you fit to be my leader" test. You must be consistant.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Cadence    
    . I was longing him daily for 25 min w/t/c and he would pull his shenanigans everytime. I would us a shank over the nose and the longe whip on him. The severity of the correction went from mild on up until he performed the action I wanted. He knows what I am asking. He is thinking about whether he wants to do it. I also growl, and sometimes that helped.
    I want you to do something different. Ask him to do whatever you are asking and if he doesn't then give him a warning growl. Then if he doesn't do it, he gets the harsh correction, not the mild one. In the herd, the lead mare doesn't start out with mild nips if she doesn't get what she wants. She'll pin her ears back as a warning and then if the horse doesn't listen he gets a big bite on the butt. You see if you start out mild with him,(because he already knows what you are asking) he will think "oh, well she gave a warning growl and if I don't listen I will get a pointless tap on the bum. Hahaha" but if you do give him a harsh correction right after the warning growl he will think "oh, if I don't do what she wants, I get in trouble, I better do what she wants". You'll be like an annoying bug if you don't show that you mean business. You'll be teaching him to listen to you after you ask him five times, not after you ask him once.
         
        08-22-2010, 02:18 PM
      #57
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SPhorsemanship    
    This is a problem because if he is top dog with horses, he thinks he will be top dog with you. To get him to fully submit, the amount of force from a human would be abusive so I think the best bet would be to just keep him in line. The best best best thing ever would be to find an alpha mare that is more alpha than him, or even two alpha mares. Maybe that would mean bringing him to another stable or talking around because if he is forced to submit, there will be a huge change.

    About the biting and him biting you 20 minutes after a correction, that is perfectly normal for a dominant horse. He is testing you, he will always be testing you and every time he tests you, you have to pass that "are you fit to be my leader" test. You must be consistant.



    I want you to do something different. Ask him to do whatever you are asking and if he doesn't then give him a warning growl. Then if he doesn't do it, he gets the harsh correction, not the mild one. In the herd, the lead mare doesn't start out with mild nips if she doesn't get what she wants. She'll pin her ears back as a warning and then if the horse doesn't listen he gets a big bite on the butt. You see if you start out mild with him,(because he already knows what you are asking) he will think "oh, well she gave a warning growl and if I don't listen I will get a pointless tap on the bum. Hahaha" but if you do give him a harsh correction right after the warning growl he will think "oh, if I don't do what she wants, I get in trouble, I better do what she wants". You'll be like an annoying bug if you don't show that you mean business. You'll be teaching him to listen to you after you ask him five times, not after you ask him once.
    Right! I see. I will do that! :) Thanks!
         
        08-22-2010, 07:41 PM
      #58
    Started
    About the growling: you want your horse to see you as his leader horse, as a non-predator; growling might register "Predator!" to his instincts. I'd try less cougar-like sounds, like "Shht!"
         
        08-22-2010, 08:03 PM
      #59
    Weanling
    It's not actually growling, it's just the best way we can explain it. I know what you're getting at, but it's not something we are going to worry about, especially when the horse thinks he is dominating us. I will try explain what I mean by growl.

    It is a sound in a lowered tone of voice, relative quick, and somewhat hoarse. It is the low tone of voice that helps the horse understand because it is so much different from just talking whereas yelling "hey!" or "no!" is in a normal tone of voice.
         
        08-22-2010, 08:41 PM
      #60
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Nature2horses    
    Isn't that sort of abusive?
    Mmm, in my opinion it is anyway. It is also a good way to provoke more aggression(or fear reactions) from some horses, so potentially make them more dangerous. And I personally do not want my horse to become my subservient slave anyway, I aim for a friendship, a partnership.
         

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