The Extreme Alpha Challenge! - Page 7
   

       The Horse Forum > Training Horses > Horse Training

The Extreme Alpha Challenge!

This is a discussion on The Extreme Alpha Challenge! within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category
  • The extreme alpha challenge

 
LinkBack Thread Tools
    08-22-2010, 08:02 PM
  #61
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cadence    
No matter what you do, they will challenge you as if challenging another horse with teeth, hooves, charging, bucking, and pawing out; every time you turn around!
It is not 'no matter what you do', but there are some horses that will always answer to a challenge if one is offered. If you've shown yourself to be up for a game, they'll be willing to join in the fray. If you didn't come at it from that perspective, you might be surprised how things can change.

Quote:
YOU MUST STOP THAT AND BEHAVE!
Yes, that sort of 'message' works much of the time, assuming the horse thinks you're worth listening to. Most horses are content to fall in behind someone who shows good leadership. But some horses are always looking for a challenge and while they may sometimes accept the above message from you, other days, he'll likely say "You & who's army??" So yes, you can definitely get results most of the time with domineering, forceful methods, but you'll need to always watch your back, for the day he decides it's his turn.
     
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
    08-22-2010, 08:18 PM
  #62
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie    
Mmm, in my opinion it is anyway. It is also a good way to provoke more aggression(or fear reactions) from some horses, so potentially make them more dangerous. And I personally do not want my horse to become my subservient slave anyway, I aim for a friendship, a partnership.
To have a proper relationship you need respect. How can you have a partnership if your horse is biting you?
     
    08-22-2010, 08:20 PM
  #63
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cadence    
Seriously, what is it about dominance and picking up feet! You would have thought I was insulting him...!
Seriously, sounds pretty insulting to me too. Have you ever watched colts or stallions play fight? They often go for eachother's forelegs.

I know I obviously have a very different mindset to you & sporthorse, and I can only offer you my opinion & experience - it's of course entirely your choice whether you take any of it, but if you've already been attempting SH's type of treatment & it's not working, might be worth considering a change of tack.

You said the horse was friendly & curious when you first met him. I'd be doing all I could to get that back & retain it, rather than knocking it out of him.
     
    08-22-2010, 08:26 PM
  #64
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPhorsemanship    
To have a proper relationship you need respect. How can you have a partnership if your horse is biting you?
It's perhaps our perception of the term 'respect' that's the difference. I never said I accepted biting or any such. I just teach them 'manners' without using force & intimidation. I don't believe that you can force 'respect', you can only *earn* it. It also has to be mutual too. If you are not respectFUL to the horse, you won't earn any from them.
     
    08-22-2010, 08:34 PM
  #65
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPhorsemanship    
To have a proper relationship you need respect. How can you have a partnership if your horse is biting you?
... & then just thinking of the biting thing.... If I could have the very obviously strong partnerships of someone like Guy McLean or Alexander Nevzorov has with their horses, then I'd be stoked - don't think I'm quite in their league yet - and yet I name those 2 because I've seen both of them get bitten by their stallions in play - and take it as play! I personally want a slightly more... polite relationship from my horses & those I retrain, but it depends what you ask for, how you go about it & what you're prepared to accept I suppose.

NB If you don't know those 2 names, at least get onto YouTube & look them up before giving your opinion of them.
     
    08-22-2010, 08:36 PM
  #66
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie    
but if you've already been attempting SH's type of treatment & it's not working, might be worth considering a change of tack.

You said the horse was friendly & curious when you first met him. I'd be doing all I could to get that back & retain it, rather than knocking it out of him.
I have only been helping her in the past few days, so my "method" has not made this horse like this. An update would be nice though!

This is my idea of a horse-human relationship. The horse must be submissive to the human, the human must be the leader. To trust the human, the horse must see the human as the leader. Once he sees the human does not hurt him and is a good leader, he starts to trust the human, and the human starts to trust the horse. Putting the horse in his place is not bad if you only do it when it is needed(like when the horse is biting).
     
    08-22-2010, 08:44 PM
  #67
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie    
... & then just thinking of the biting thing.... If I could have the very obviously strong partnerships of someone like Guy McLean or Alexander Nevzorov has with their horses, then I'd be stoked - don't think I'm quite in their league yet - and yet I name those 2 because I've seen both of them get bitten by their stallions in play - and take it as play! I personally want a slightly more... polite relationship from my horses & those I retrain, but it depends what you ask for, how you go about it & what you're prepared to accept I suppose.

NB If you don't know those 2 names, at least get onto YouTube & look them up before giving your opinion of them.
I have heard of Nevzorov and I would like to be able to do what he does, who wouldn't? But the fact is, he has much different experience in his training methods and he is the only one that can do it. My "method" isn't smacking every horse. This is a case of a very dominant horse, and in this case, sometimes it is necessary. To some horses, this could break all trust and to this horse(Op's horse), it is a correction. The relationship the Nevzorov has with his horses are very very different than most, and only he can do it while being safe. It has also taken him many years. Sadly, these days sport has taken over and horses don't have many years to form relationships and people don't have the knowledge and understanding that Nevzorov has so trying to have a relationship like that would be dangerous.

If you want to bring other trainers into this, I want you to look at Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling. He, in my opinion is the best trainer in the world. He, from the "first encounter" is the leader and he does it through"energy". He has the best relationships with horses, and he is who I have taken many parts of my methods from.
     
    08-22-2010, 09:07 PM
  #68
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPhorsemanship    
I think it depends on the situation, because if the horse knows what he should be doing, but doesn't want to, babying won't work.
'Should' is a great word, isn't it?? And assuming what the horse 'knows'. For one, how do you know the horse 'knows' anything of the sort?? From the sounds of things, he only knows of being manhandled & forced by brute strength to 'submit'.(altho I suspect there's more to that). And as for 'should', why on earth should he do as you please, just because you please?? Why not give him a reason to *want* to do it, rather than attempting to bully him?
     
    08-22-2010, 09:12 PM
  #69
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie    
'Should' is a great word, isn't it?? And assuming what the horse 'knows'. For one, how do you know the horse 'knows' anything of the sort?? From the sounds of things, he only knows of being manhandled & forced by brute strength to 'submit'.(altho I suspect there's more to that). And as for 'should', why on earth should he do as you please, just because you please?? Why not give him a reason to *want* to do it, rather than attempting to bully him?
In the modern world, horses have to do things, whether we like it or not. If I could, I would do classical dressage, and work on forming relationships and have better, back and forth communication. It's hard for that to be done and people these days don't want to spend the time doing that and they don't have the experience to do that. Please read my former post.

It sounds like you come from a natural horsemanship way of training? I understand where you are coming from and from your earlier post could you explain how you "earn a horse's trust"? Have you ever worked with a dominant horse?
     
    08-22-2010, 09:31 PM
  #70
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cadence    
I don't know how to make this horse get it when I am happy with something he does using the conventional methods of saying, "Goood boyyyyy!" doesn't work. Petting in the places on their body that they tell you to pat doesn't work. Food just encourages him to be more mouthy and he bites and looks for more treats,.... I pet him on the neck and say goood boyyy and he reaches over to bite me. That is what this horse is like. Lol
If you're saying "Goood Boooy" & haven't already established, through associating it with positive reinforcement, what you want it to mean to him, you may as well say "Blah blah BlaaaaH". Whatever cue, praise, whatever, you want the horse to understand, it needs to be taught with repetition of immediate consequences.

Petting is often something that fearful, untrusting horses perceive as punishment, and something that dominant horses see as people taking liberties they have no right to, so probably not an appropriate form of reinforcement at the moment, but something horses can learn to enjoy.

Food of itself is not the problem here. But offering - or a horse knowing you have - Something Good without first teaching it manners, and teaching it what behaviours Work to get a reward *& what behaviours don't* is what gets people into trouble. That is why I suggested teaching this from the other side of a fence to begin with and establishing the rules before using them in other 'games'. It's not what *effective* reinforcements you use, but what you teach - inadvertantly or otherwise - with them that causes a horse to learn Good or Bad 'table' manners.
     

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Know an Extremely Alpha Horse? Northern Horse Talk 34 08-13-2010 06:37 PM
Extreme Trail Challenge Headcam Amaranth Horse Talk 5 05-12-2010 03:05 PM
extreme alpha mare luvsmygirls Horse Training 4 04-04-2009 01:37 AM
Alpha or Beta?! free_sprtd Horse Training 11 11-12-2008 09:26 PM
Alpha Mare with Alpha Gelding? FutureVetGirl Horse Talk 2 09-02-2008 03:29 AM



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0