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Feeding question

3K views 35 replies 18 participants last post by  Acadianartist 
#1 ·
Hi all,

I haven't spent much time around horses, but my wife has, and my daughter has been working with horses in 4H for the past 5 years. This was my wife and daughter's 'thing,' something they did together, and outside of the occasional work involved and the money spent, I was very hands-off. This was theirs.

My wife passed away two weeks ago. I am committed to stepping up to fill her considerable shoes. We have a nine year old mare and her two year old filly. I am smart enough to know that I don't know the first thing about training a horse, but I also know a little about common sense. My daughter is pretty knowledgeable, but she's also 14, which means she believes she is much more experienced than she actually is. This is just a little background for my question.

Every day when we feed the evening grain, my daughter and I butt heads about this little problem. My wife would mix the water with the grain before feeding, never had an issue. My daughter on the other hand insists that she needs to put the grain in the feeding bin, then 'argue' with our two year old filly to get her to back up while she waters it down. It's a fight that never goes well. She backs her up, but as soon as she turns her back on the horse to water the grain, the horse is trying to push past her to get to it again, which means she has to stop and back up the horse again. She's a good filly, but she's also a 2 year old, 1,000 lb animal. She's kicked and thrown fits during these little episodes, which prompts me to enter the stall with them and back her down, which then sets off my daughter who tells me she needs to do this on her own. My solution is to simply water the grain down before presenting it into the feeding bin. My daughter insists that I am wrong. Of course, to her I'm just a 48 year old fool without the knowledge or wisdom of a 14 year old girl with 5 years of riding under her belt.

My question is, is there a right answer to this dilemma? It seems to me that common sense would dictate that you never lose the fights you don't start, and teaching the filly to back up and stay put would be much, much simpler if it wasn't happening at feeding time. And, even if it is a proper time to teach the horse this lesson, perhaps it isn't proper to try to teach the horse this skill by turning your back on it to water the grain and expecting it to comply.

Sorry for the long first post. I'm tired and frustrated and frankly a little out of my element. Thank you in advance for any advice you may have.
 
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#2 · (Edited)
Well 4Hdad......you and your daughter seem to have been through a lot...

You've offered your advice, and frankly, that's about all you can do IMO.

Some people can learn the easy way, and others have to learn the hard way.

What I see, is that you and your daughter are spending time together and that's so wonderful. The mid-teen years were difficult for me.

I have two daughters, both in their mid-30's. As much as I wanted to protect them, part of growing is letting them learn by their own mistakes.

Another thing to consider is it may not be what your saying, but rather, how your saying it? The power of suggestion is often far greater than telling them they're doing it wrong. Maybe suggest there's a better way and see if she figures it out on her own? Or, maybe ask her why her mother did it the other way?

Also, back in 2007, DW lost her son.....she's never been the same.....and I bought a horse for her. I wasn't really interested in horses....move forward a few years.....I think I'm having more fun with them than she is...

I've noticed, there seems to be far more women riding around here than men......so watch out!

You and your daughter just have fun together....won't be many more years and she's likely to have a life of her own....

The loss of a wife, and a mother for her......well, that's about as tough as it gets......lord have mercy on you......and on her.....
 
#3 ·
First off my condolences on the loss of your wife...

As for your daughter....
She is 14, a kid...learning.
You're going to butt heads many times as she advances in age, sprouts her wings and gains her independence...all while trying to keep her safe as possible from harm.

So, your wife, and more experienced horse-person put water in the bucket, added the feed, probably let it soak a little bit then brought it to the horse and hung the bucket allowing the horse to eat in peace...no confrontation.
Your daughter on the other hand is bringing feed in to the stall, dumping it in a dry bucket, turning her back to scoop water and chastising, chasing the horse away from their food.
Confrontation taking place....not so good.
Your daughter is trying to show who is boss but imo picking the wrong time and place...
The horse is simple minded.
They recognize the signs of eating and food coming their way, get excited. Now is not the time to to play who is superior the way your daughter is.... now is the time that the horse respect your space as you bring them their food, then you respect them and leave them alone to eat in peace...
1000 pounds of horse, getting angry against your 110 pound or so daughter is not going to be pretty...the tension is already escalated you mentioned in the horses reactions to this change in feeding routine.
As "dad" I would simply say....this is the way your mother did feeding time and this is the way it shall remain for now. We know it worked. We know the horses were well fed and cared for. We know the filly was less stressed and less stressed means safer for you and safer for me who is not as "horse" as you, YET!!

Pick your battles, with child and horse...
But you are "dad", the adult and she is the child.
You see the dangers, she only sees trying to be the forceful one and show dominance...she needs now to earn respect from the horses first...
Your daughter is trying to prove something and picking the wrong thing and time to "prove" anything with, again my opinion.
:runninghorse2:....
jmo...
 
#4 ·
I'm so sorry for the loss of your wife. My heart goes out to you and I applaud you for wanting to help out with the horses.

Of course you're right. There's no sense in dumping grain in front of a horse and expecting the horse not to eat it. There's a limit to a 2 year old's patience! But your daughter may be acting out for other reasons... I have an extraordinarily stubborn 11 year old who would argue with me that she's right even if she knows very well that she's wrong. Sometimes, I have to give her an "out" so she can save face. Is there a way that she can water the grain after putting it in the bin, but without creating this confrontation? For example, can the grain be prepared and watered before he horse is allowed in its stall? Can the feed bin be removed so it is prepared in the feed room, then placed into the stall (I have corner bins that are screwed in so I bought a second set that I can just plop down into place inside the screwed-in ones)? Anything so your daughter doesn't have to admit she's wrong. She may be trying to fill her mother's shoes too, and can't admit she may not know as much as her mother did. Another option is to bring in someone else she trusts and looks up to. A trainer, farrier, vet... someone she trusts that you can talk to ahead of time about the situation. Leave them alone to go over feeding plans and whatever you do, don't say you told her so! Just look the other way and pretend you haven't noticed. At least, that's the only way to deal with issues like this when it comes to my own daughter. She hates being wrong so the last thing I want to do is remind her of it!

Again, my heart goes out to you. I don't know what my husband would do if I wasn't here to do everything with regard to the horses. You are an amazing man to want to do this for your daughter. Someday, she will appreciate it, but not now.
 
#5 ·
First of all, I can say that I just love you and your commitment to your daughter. My husband isn't interested in our horse, and I often wonder what would happen to our horse and my son's riding career if something were to happen to me. I love hearing that you are stepping up. I'm so sorry for your loss.

And as others have said, I think your way makes more sense. But, when dealing with teens, the path that makes the most sense isn't always the one they stubbornly insist on taking. Plus, you are dealing with a 2-year-old horse, which is probably also about a teenager in horse mentality. I like AA's ideas of a compromise of some sort.
 
#6 ·
You sound like a really great Dad in supporting your daughter so thoughtfully at such a hard time when you must both be grieving so much.
I agree with Arcadianartist's approach, if you could find a way to get the feed watered in the bins before horses allowed in their yards to feed, without having an issue about it with your daughter, if possible. Horses can be so pushy at feed time and it's better way to minimise risk in dealing with them when they can get bolshi and unpredictable. My horse is on full livery and this is the system in place where he lives and works in pretty orderly manner for five horses from what i have observed. My best wishes to you and your daughter at this hard time.
 
#8 ·
I also send my sympathies on your loss, and laud your attempt to fill your wife's shoes, when it comes to the horses, and taking on the double parent role in a thoughtfull manner.
As has been said, there might be a reason your daughter wishes to do things diferently then her mother did- separating her from loss, declaring her individuality?
At the same time, you are the parent, and thus have to look out for her best interests, which include being safe around horses, while also avoiding an unnesiasary confrontation with that two year old, based on un realistic expectations
While it is perfectly acceptable to have ahorse stay back respectable, while his food is being served, it is un realistic for ahorse to then understand he has to wait, until that food is ready to eat, esp when that was never previous routine.
Thus, I would point blank ask your daughter why she wishes to change the way her mother did things, and then just tell her that following her mother's methods will be used , as that is one of the things she left behind of herself- the knowledge of horses, to pass on to both of you
 
#9 ·
Thank you all for your warm thoughts and sound advice. It's all valuable, and this is a new experience for me, so I truly appreciate all of the good advice I can get.

I've told her before that you need to pick your battles and avoid those fights that can't be won, and this particular battle just doesn't need to be fought. Later, I tried applying that reasoning to my own experience with this particular battle with my daughter, but you know, it just doesn't hold up. I defer to her knowledge in most things with the horses and don't challenge her experience with them, which is far greater than my own. In this case, though, I strongly believe that I have to challenge her reasoning. She'll push back, I'm sure, because it's what teenagers do, and because she inherited her mother's strong will (which is a very nice way of staying she was a stubborn woman).

This is not only for her benefit both daily and further down the road, but also for the benefit of the horse. Everything I've learned, which admittedly isn't all that much, tells me that we're to always set the horse up to succeed, and the way she's going about this part of her routine is just setting that horse up to fail every time. It's all good and proper and necessary to teach the horse patience in a setting where she'll be responsive to it, but this just doesn't seem like the time or place or method for that particular lesson.

Thanks again for all of your good advice, folks. I wonder if there is a 'stubbornteenagerforum-dot-com' where I can go to learn more about these ornery creatures...
 
#10 ·
I am so sorry for your family's loss. You've got a tough row to hoe. There's nothing more stubborn and willful than a 14 yo horsegirl, ask me how I know. I've been run over, kicked, bitten and just generally worked over by many a horse and 99% of the time, it was either stupidity, ignorance, inattention (all mine) and very little malice or spite (theirs).

I actually see a few ways you can handle this, but I won't suggest one over the others because I don't know your daughter, you or your dynamics. The one thing I will say is that SAFETY trumps everything, her feelings, her independence and your right to be the DAD.

#1 You can say that this was her mother's way and until further notice, this is the way things will be done (watering the grain first, then giving to the horse). That avoids confrontation with the horse and puts Safety first.

Then at home, over supper or something, you can take the time to ask why she wants to change the routine. Horses are very malleable and can get used to anything you ask, but the timing is key and when feeding a 2 yo dinner is not the time or place.

#2 You can ask her at the barn why she wants to change, but that's probably going to be in the middle of the confrontation or right before feeding time, delaying the horse's dinner. Not going to be real well accepted by either one, IMO, and could distract daughter enough to be a Safety issue.

#3 You can put the feed in the stall and water it before the horse gets there, again avoiding confrontation, just expecting the horse not to barge to the feed bowl when let in.

#4 Do nothing and let her learn by earning her lumps. As a prior graduate of this method, I'll say I don't really recommend it. Hospital bills are almost as expensive as vet bills.

Bottom line right now is, you're dad & mom, and what you say goes. Like it or lump it, she's the child and you are the parent. A lot of this may be acting out because she's looking for leadership and needs you to take a strong line with her. Kids can be a lot like young horses that way. She's probably feeling as much or more lost as you are and needs to know that having a strong leader has not changed.
 
#11 ·
I'll agree that feeding time is not the place to teach a horse anything. All they're interested in is food so you're going to have a really tough time teaching them anything. That being said ... I expect all of my horses to behave all the time. If there's ever an emergency situation I can't wait until they're done with their grain before doing something. I teach my horses to "stand" and they know that when I say "stand" that means don't move. Of course I don't teach this around dinner time. But I get them to the point where I can say "stand" dump the grain in, and they will stand there staring at me until I kiss to them and they can move forward to eat. Dreams is a 2 year old and he understands this concept. In my opinion a horse should never be allowed to mug you. But, as others have said, pick your battles - and definitely don't try to teach the horse something completely new around feeding time. It's a recipe for disaster.
My condolences on the loss of your life partner. How great of you to step forward and offer to take part in this with your daughter! : )

-- Kai
 
#12 ·
I am very sorry for your loss. You may not be an experienced horseman, but your common sense is coming through. Your daughter is confusing the filly. She's a two year old and while she does need to have manners, she is being set up to rebel. I realize that this a very hard time for your daughter but perhaps if you point out that much of what she knows she learned from her mom and the horses were fed a certain way for a reason. If there is someone who your daughter respects as a knowledgeable horse person, perhaps some advice on situations like this coming from them would be helpful. In the mean time compliment your daughter on what she does know and do correctly. The two of you should be working as a team not bumping heads especially now.
 
#14 ·
If there is someone who your daughter respects as a knowledgeable horse person, perhaps some advice on situations like this coming from them would be helpful.
Hi Textan, and thank you for your advice. I actually went to one of the ladies at our stable first, someone who has been incredibly helpful and encouraging, only to find that she's telling me one thing (agreeing with me) and she's telling my daughter something else (agreeing with her). Without diverting into barn drama, to which I am new, and at which I am going to stink because I just won't do it, I've decided to just be as diplomatic with my daughter about the situation as possible. I want her to understand the reasoning behind doing things 'my way,' which is really my wife's way, but I guess I'll settle for begrudged compliance.

Thank you again everyone for your very helpful advice.
 
#13 ·
Hi @4Hdad, I am very sorry for the loss of your wife.
Props to you for being there for your daughter and the horses, regardless of how much you 'know'. That's love, and shows you truly care. It's great you are taking this on, and willing to learn. :)

You are most certainly right about this situation- your wife was doing it the correct way, why annoy the horse when you can just water the grain then give it to the horse. This way, there won't be any confrontation during her feed time.
Of course your daughter wants to do it 'her' way, but the horse is young and it would be in her best interest to do it the way your wife did it- that's the safest way IMO.
Safety first, always. Plus it's easier to feed that way too. Makes it easier on everyone.
 
#15 ·
4Hdad....you are correct in that there are going to be times when you can't worry about her happiness.....that's a fathers duty....

Be a father first, friends second, and often realize, the two don't always co-mingle.

Actually, I think, you might find some peace from the back of a horse.....as hard as it is to believe now......I look forward to every Saturday when I trail ride way back in the mountains....
 
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#16 ·
4H dad. You are correct. Be a parent first, friend second. When your daughter comes up saying so and so said, tell her that everyone can have opinions , but, she is to listen to you regarding the horses.
I am curious, why are you graining these horses ? If they have enough hay/forage and are not being worked hard, are in good health , they should not require grain.
 
#17 ·
Hi stevenson, you know, I had to ask as this is all new to me. I had known that the fences have problems in large lots of pasture so they haven't been turned out to graze in a while. There are a couple of different things blended in with the grain that I'm learning about, at least one of them is a supplement for joint support. What I'm learning is that any change, or even the hint of change, is met with a huge amount if resistance. So, I am trying to tread lightly.

Did I mention that in this regard I am failing, utterly? Case in point: Last night, she's feeding the baby water from a coke can. I told her not to. She said it's ok. I told her the horse can cut it's lip on a tin can, she told me it can't. Harsh words were spoken. Big fight, and she grudgingly accepted my say on the matter. This morning, awe, what a cute video on Facebook of one of the barn moms filming her feeding the baby from a coke can. I guess it's just ok to feed a horse from a tin can and I'm the fool for stepping in.

I know I'm no horse person. I know I'm bound to make mistakes. I just assumed that a little bit of common sense was in order.

This is all still new to me and I'm such an outsider.
 
#19 ·
The horse world can feel exclusive when you're new to it, but just know that common sense is 't as common as you'd think. The coke can is a good example. You have a head, and it sounds like you'll be able to pick up on these thongs as well.

In regards to your daughter, this might be a form of resentment bubbling through. Your daughter just lost her mom and horses - Their thing, not your thing, is being taken over by her dad. Who she might not feel is qualified because it's not mom, you don't know quite as much, etc. This is a form of grief that you might very well need to sit her down and talk over.

Dreamcatcher is right.

I hope that the coming months flow as smoothly as they can. I'm sorry for your loss. ):
 
#20 ·
Thanks again for the great advice and encouragement. I'm walking the line between being a responsible dad and not looking like I'm trying to fill the considerable shoes her mom has left. That being said, I can see another battle ahead and it's got less to do with a headstrong 14 year old bending to her dad's authority and more to do with barn personalities who aren't necessarily onboard with me stepping in to the role.

They're all nice folks, very supportive and helpful, and I don't want to appear ungrateful in any way. BUT, I'll have to find a way to let them know that while I appreciate everything they do, they need to start appreciating that there are some things they need to step away from. At the end of the day, it's my kid picking a losing battle with her foal, it's my horse that will end up with the cut on her lip or the pop can tab stuck to her tongue, and they need to learn that there are some instances where, like it or lump it, I'm setting the boundaries, and it's not their place to encourage my kid to test them.
 
#21 ·
thanks again for the great advice and encouragement. I'm walking the line between being a responsible dad and not looking like i'm trying to fill the considerable shoes her mom has left. That being said, i can see another battle ahead and it's got less to do with a headstrong 14 year old bending to her dad's authority and more to do with barn personalities who aren't necessarily onboard with me stepping in to the role.

They're all nice folks, very supportive and helpful, and i don't want to appear ungrateful in any way. But, i'll have to find a way to let them know that while i appreciate everything they do, they need to start appreciating that there are some things they need to step away from. At the end of the day, it's my kid picking a losing battle with her foal, it's my horse that will end up with the cut on her lip or the pop can tab stuck to her tongue, and they need to learn that there are some instances where, like it or lump it, i'm setting the boundaries, and it's not their place to encourage my kid to test them.
100% yes.
 
#22 ·
Thought you said you were "new" to the horse thing for the most part?


Actually, you sound like someone with great common sense, love for your daughter, love for your animals and the smarts to see the barn politics and influences for where they are and where they are pushing to go.....

Use your gut instincts.....
So far from what you have written they are leading you in the right direction...
You can try speaking with those adults that are trying to push the issues now surfacing....
You can also put some very hard and heavy rules on your daughter that would stop it in the tracks and give you another fight in return...
You can also lay the foundation of these are the rules, these are the boundaries...she's going to test them, but breaking them are two different things and consequences...

Above all....
You must be the parent not the friend right now.
You know more than you think "horse" and are in-transition on family hierarchy as it now has become..
A tough place to be and you are just surviving yet too...
Make sure your daughter also understands it is not just her that hurts and is angry at losing her mom. You have also lost....
:runninghorse2:....


 
#23 ·
i'm going to disagree with a few that say don't bother trying to teach a horse something at feeding time.

I would say prepare the grain outside of the stall then put it in the pail, but I want a horse that I can back away from their feed dish if I say so. My trainer is a vietnam vet, bit of a grissled old guy but he wants utmost respect from the horse and wants to be in control. If he tells a horse to step back it doesn't matter if it's tied, loose, or eating he wants it to step back.

Yes some will think that sounds extreme, but especially when dealing with a young horse who is going to test EVERYTHING you have to guide them into the right situation and have them realize that YOU (and your daughter) are the boss, when you are around what you say your horse needs to respect (just like kids) if they learn respect early they will hold that respect for their lifetime and be easier to work with later on
 
#24 ·
Lots of good and thoughtful responses here.

I feed two loose horses 'grain' every morning and it took awhile for me to figure out the most peaceful way to get that done (pre-mix in two buckets, feed the dominant horse first in the far box, feed the subordinate horse second in the near box, then close the gate between them until subordinate horse is done eating. Deviate at your peril). Horses get anxious, eager and shovey around high-value food. Anxious horses are dangerous horses, particularly on the ground.

I would just add that the lesson for the filly is to not invade a person's space, no matter what. That's really all. If your daughter understands that, she can make a decision about how to construct that lesson. She just has to be very clear that every time she interacts with that horse, she is teaching it something. EVERY time. If she wants to teach it that feeding time is when things get confusing and confrontational, she is going about it just right.

If it was my daughter I would want to have *that* discussion with her, not one about authority, picking your battles, or doing things whose way. Those are big big discussions that have no end point. Worth having, sure, but maybe not mixed together.

Make it about the horse, not her. Come at it from "I just want to understand your reasoning here". Quite possibly she isn't thinking all that clearly about it.

And the discussion should not be at feeding time.
 
#25 ·
I have to say I fully agree with Avna. When my extraordinarily stubborn daughter has done something I take issue with, I've found that if I take it up with her at another time and express my thoughts calmly and objectively, she will often change her way of doing things the next time. She'll never admit she changed it up because of me and will show the usual resistance while I'm talking to her, but lo and behold, the next time the situation arises, I notice she's modified her behavior. Of course you do NOT want to point this out!!! That would be suicide. You just go on like nothing ever happened...
 
#26 ·
I'm coming to find that a little knowledge goes a long way. This particular activity has been corrected, and I feel much better equipped to handle things positively the next time we have a difference of opinion over the horses.

I've also got some lessons on groundwork for our filly coming up. I feel I need to get a handle on the basics and build up some confidence. I've always handled her with no problems, she backs when I ask her to and seems to follow my lead, but all I've really done with her myself is walk her around with a halter.

Again, from the heart, thank you all so much for the good advice and warm wishes.
 
#29 ·
Can I just say, as a horsey mom who has a non-horsey husband, that your wife would be so proud and touched that you are getting so involved?

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

If something happened to my husband, I don't know that I could ever learn enough about football so I could adequately be there for my son... this can't be easy for you. You have my fullest admiration.
 
#31 ·
Oh what a sensible Dad you are!

You see the problems as they arise, see the risk and as you said use that not often seen 'common sense' to this situation.

I go along with what the others have said. Water the feed before taking it to the horse.

The filly must learn to wait for the feed to be emptied into the manger, giving respectful room for the human to do so. Then she needs to be left in peace to eat her food.

I had several young horses to feed, they would all be together in a loose barn, they all knew that they could follow behind me, never pushing and wait whilst I emptied the feed in one bin and moved on to the next. They ate in pecking order, boss got the first bowl and so on down the line.

If I didn't have control over them I might well have been flattened!

Your daughter is setting herself up to having unnecessary battles which will only lead to resentment. As long as the filly gives respectful room to place the food that is enough.

Sorry for your resent loss, nerves must be raw with you both and glad you are starting out the way you want to go on. Bet your wife is watching with a grin on her face!
 
#32 ·
I want to thank everyone for all of the support. The past month has been something of a roller coaster for us. After a couple of 'head butting' moments, it looks like my daughter and I are seeing eye-to-eye on a number of things. I've learned to try really, really hard not to push when it comes to areas of riding/training that she has far more experience than I in, and she tries really, really hard not to push back when I offer common-sense advice or direction. It seems to me like these are two potential kinks in our 'working relationship' with the horses that we've managed to work out in short order. I'm sure we'll be tested occasionally, but after our first couple episodes of problems and solutions, we've been good.

That's some very good news. The other good news is that I'll be beginning ground work on our 2.5 yo filly Gypsy this week. I've spent the last two weeks absorbing what I can from Carson James' web site, which I am enjoying very much. I've been interested for a long time in the philosophy behind his and other folks like Buck Brannaman methods, even if I never actually applied any of it. Years ago I picked up Buck's "7 Clinics" videos for my wife and daughter and, of course, they never watched them, but I did because I enjoy his philosophy, and watching his demeanor with the horses. So, my goal now is to train her up to be respectful and soft. Not a gaming horse, but a dependable trail horse.

There are a handful of folks at the barn who are so incredibly helpful, and one of them whose knowledge and demeanor I trust has offered to start us (Gypsy and I) on groundwork this week. I am very much looking forward to where the 'rubber meets the road' in putting the knowledge I've been trying to collect into action.

Again, thanks to you all for the support, feedback and warm wishes. It's only recently that I truly got the feeling that this is something I can do, maybe even do a pretty good job at. A little bittersweet, but it's a great feeling. ;)
 
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