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First time training, hit a snag.

9K views 101 replies 20 participants last post by  Silvera 
#1 · (Edited)
I have a 4 year old Arabian/Paint pony. She is very sweet, she's the "puppy" of the group. I have worked with her from birth and her ground manners are top notch. She responds very strongly to voice, rather than force. Last fall i started saddle breaking her. I couldn't actually ride her due to an injury (me, not her), but i was able to bit her and get her used to the saddle and lunging with the equipment.

Over the winter she wasn't worked with much, I don't have an indoor arena. So this spring, we've started back up.

I have done all of this by myself without an arena of any sort, out in the open or in a small paddock. She is practically fool proof most of the time. She barely reacted to her first time with a saddle on her back. She knows she has to stand when i want her to stand, and that has followed through to make this process pretty simple.

My only problem is that she doesn't want to accept a bit at all. She gets panicky with the bit in her mouth. So yesterday, i put just the headstall on with a bit and turned her out on her own to get used to it. She ran around, bucking and kicking, tossing her head. Eventually she calmed down.

I cannot work with her with the bit in her mouth, she acts like she doesn't remember anything i've taught her. She gets nervous, she prances. This is my first time and i'm a total newb at this. So we are both learning together. I've tried a french link snaffle, copper mouth. I've tried rubber. She just goes into panic mode, "I don't like this - omg omg omg omg." She's not bad at all, she just is in her flight mode. Every noise will spook her, every movement. I'll post two video's from last year, the first one is the very first time she had the saddle on her back and the second is the 3rd. She is SO calm, she respects me, i barely have to even lead her. Most of her training to date has been based on Natural Horsemanship. As long as she knows what i'm asking, she'll do it. You can see in the vids that she is just very calm and accepting.

The bit however, she hates. She lets me put it in her mouth, she keeps her head low. But as soon as it's in she's a quivering mass of nerves.

I have tried working with her with reins attached to the halter and she does great. But she's going to have to accept a bit eventually. Do i just keep making her wear it? what's the best kind to use (i have access to many, all very gentle. My harshes bit is a curb i used to use for barrels) to make her realize nothing horrible is going to happen just because there's a bit in her mouth?

She's a very small girl, and i've had a hard time finding a bit that fits her really well. Her teeth were just checked and i was told everything was okay and no float was needed (she's pastured 24/7), but maybe i should double check that? That was about a month ago.

Any words of wisdom for a first timer such as myself? I thought about sending her off for training, but she's so easy going i really think i can do it myself. It's just hard with the set up that i have. We're getting there. Here's the video's.


Note: I *look* funky in the beginning of this one. There's no sound so you can't hear, but i was just giving her a pep talk because she was wanting to go the direction we usually worked in, and was trying to be pushy about it. I needed her to go the other way because of where the camera was set up at. And as you can see, she accepted it without a fess. Mostly verbal cues from me. She was always relaxed, willing, and very accepting. Why does the bit make her freak out?
Here's the other, i just put this one together for my mother to see. But it shows how wonderful she usually is. This was like her 2nd or 3rd time, and you can see how i can tack her up without assistance/her being tied. She's practically trained to ground tie.


*Disclaimer - I do not reccomend working with a 4 year old who has never had a saddle, by yourself, in an open field, and tacking/untacking without the horse tied. Do not try this at home!* :lol:
 
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#49 ·
Wild_spot, that's great for you and your horse. Do whatever makes you happy.
It's not what makes me happy. I got the mare as a practically unhandled 5yo about 4 months ago, I had no say in anything that had happened or not happened.

All I was doing is pointing out that wether the horse is saddled/bridled at 2, or at 5, doesn't make a difference - It's the personality of the horse that makes a difference.
 
#53 ·
ONE HUNDRED percent agreed with wild spot!! My horses wasnt saddled until 3 and my moms horses wasnt saddled until 7, and he was abused!! both NEVER had a problem getting on the back of! call us lucky i guess...but our horses just trusted us..as well as had respect. Age is nothing but a number.
 
#50 ·
You folks have heard of approach & retreat, right? In case not, it's to work on a fear a horse has by increments, not by putting the horse in the situation it fears & keeping it there: as the horse thinks the frightening thing'll be, in this case, in its mouth forever at first! By removing the bit as soon as nervousness appears, the horse learns that it's temporary and it didn't hurt (hopefully)! The horse is scared, approach & retreat is humane.
Approach and retreat is a very valid training tool.

However I would be inclined to only remove the bit when she showed signs of relaxing. Accepting - Remove and retreat = reward.
 
#55 ·
So since you told squeak to listen because she had 3+ people telling her one thing and she didnt want to listen...how about you? take your own advice white foot...you now have 3+ people telling you age DOESNT matter...the personality of the horse and rider and one is what makes the difference. weather the horse trusts you enough at age two to get on his/her back..or at the age of 7 doesnt matter..trust is trust...again..my horse was 3...never been worked with a day in her life...so i had a blank canvas to work with. first time i got on her she didnt do a thing but stand there. i squeeze my leg...and she walked...shes NEVER once tried to buck with me or kick with me on her....my moms horse...got him at age 6, he was abused, had scars all over him..didnt trust a sole, couldnt even get a halter on him...took her about 8 months with him to get his manners in good condition...she got on him...didnt do a thing. trusted her with all his heart...so again...perfect example of AGE DOESNT MATTER!
 
#56 ·
I did not read through all of the posts, so this may already have been said. If I were you I would bit her up, and turn her loose. Possiblly for hours at a time. She has to figure this one out on her own, that the world hasnt drastically changed because she is wearing a bit. Put the headstall on, and tun her out in a safe, familiar place and just keep an eye on her so there are no accidents. Try this with a grazing bit or plain snaffle. Eventually she will want to do something calm and normal like eat or drink, and she will. She will likely try to get rid of it, I had one that laid down and rubbed the headstall off, so keep an eye on her, no rubbing on the fence and the like. It isnt much different than when a horse somtimes pitches a fit about moving undersaddle the first few times. This one is just harder for her. I bet you had an arm over her back a lot...how often were your fingers in her mouth? :)
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#57 ·
I happen to think that as a 2, even 3 year old, horses are still very much like your typical 12 and 13 year old kids. They can grasp the concepts of things and know what's right, but not necessarily always formulate that into proper decision making. I have a 2 year old Appy, though he was a rescue and still needs to earn trust, i have no plans to do anything with him until he's 3 or 4. Just a personal preference, I don't see how it makes a huge difference to the finished product.

I think 3 is a good age to begin saddle breaking. That is just my opinion to add to the bunch.

I do not have a bond with him the way that i do with Socks, and I will probably send him for training. With Socks, she's one of those "I will jump a bridge if you ask me to" types. I don't consider myself a trainer, and don't feel I can train an abused horse who doesn't trust a soul.
 
#58 ·
Well my mom is good at what she does...granted, shes had race horses her whole life, so riding horses are trained differently, but the concept for the most part is still the same...but she got one of those one in a million horses...ive seen abused horses take years to except the fact that not everyone is out to get them and she did it in 8 months....GO MOM! :D
 
#59 ·
One must help the horse see that there's no need for fear. Please consider the danger; this horse could really hurt/kill itself & others by leaving bit in its mouth right now. Also, "keeping an eye on" panicked horse in pasture won't prevent a disaster that one'd regret forever.
 
#60 · (Edited)
Jesus Christ! The horse is 4, and that is mature enough to start training for riding NOW if that's what the owner wants. If she wants to train her horse to take a bit I assume that is her goal.

The OP is talking about a horse that was handled since birth, touched everywhere from day one. No wonder the mare handles most things very well. I'm betting that she just finds the bitting more difficult because having something in her mouth (in the mares mind) falls outside of all previous handling.
Therefore the owner, who is used to a perfectly mannered horse, is surprised at the mares reaction and is unsure what to do.

Provided that the bit fits her and is placed properly, wearing it is NOT going to hurt her in any way. The mare just needs to get used to it, and the only happens is by Doing it.

Also, Northern, you say "panicked" but the OP said "nervous" and "spooky"...I see a sizable difference there. If the owner thinks she might be a problem wearing it in a pasture, then do it in a stall. I did say a SAFE place.

What I'm picturing here is a mare that just needs to deal with a bit, without anything else going on (hence turning her loose, no commands or work asked by the owner, just dealing with the thing in her mouth), long enough to figure out that the bit is no different than the halter or saddle.
 
#61 ·
Kaioti, i really agree with you. What you say makes perfect sense and what i was trying to get across.

I graduated with a girl who has gone to college and the whole shebang and now runs her own horse training business. Only downside is that it's over 2 hours away from me. I was speaking to her for some advice. I plan on sending my Appy to her next year. She said much of what you have said, Kaioti. She also offered to fine tune her once i get her started under saddle (she realizes i'm pretty determined to not give up!). So we'll see what happens.
 
#62 ·
Squeaky's descriptions

Ok, I re-read the first post describing mare's behavior: "panicky", "ran around bucking & kicking", and further posts, "she turns into a quivering mass of nerves", "spooks & is nervous for the rest of session after the bit is tried"! So I feel no need to retract my advice on approach & retreat & riskiness of not doing so. Yet everyone's opinion is handicapped because we're not there with the horse, seeing/feeling what she needs. Good luck, Squeaky, & for our edification, please let us know what worked!
 
#64 ·
And part of why I feel that this horse should just be left to wear the bit for a while, is that it sounds like the horse sort of shuts down when presented with the bit. It doesn't sound like a sacking out thing where the horse is kind of nervous but still listening. Advance and retreat works when the horse is paying enough attention to calm down and recognize the reward end of things. When they shut down, often that is when they have to figure the problem out without human help. Being there and trying to get their attention can make an unthinking horse worse, even if the horse ordinarily trusts its handlers.
 
#66 ·
Squeak, have you tried a Happy Mouth bit?

I think you said she's small, and it can be hard to find bits under 5" from them. But if you can find something, she might accept it better.

Did you start the bitting training by putting the bit in for only a few seconds, then removing it? Doing that for progressively longer periods of time? If not, you might go back to that step for a day or two. After that, I agree, at some point she's got to figure it out for herself. Give her a quiet, safe place and keep an eye on her.
 
#67 ·
Oh for goodness sake, put the bit in the horses mouth, attach a set of running reins firmly enough that there is some pressure yet loosely enough that as the horse bends her neck she can relieve the pressure. Step back and let her get on with teaching herself how to yield to the bit!! Leave her the hell alone, she may get panicky and go around and around in circles but her head wont fall off and she will get sick of that and start to think for herself. It may take five minutes it may take an hour leave the process going until she is standing calmly and relaxed with a slightly bent neck. It is so bloody SIMPLE!

The only problems that you are going to encounter with this is if YOU apply the running rein wrong.
 
#68 ·
The only thing I disagree with is asking her to bend to the bit if she is as uncomfortable with just wearing it as she sounds. Yielding to it can come after she doesn't have a problem just having it in. This is something that it doesn't hurt to wait on since there is no hurry. That way she only has one thing to concern herself with at a time, considering how upsetting it is for her.

But it is true that running reins won't hurt either.
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#69 ·
Kiwigirl, i plan to do just that once she's comfortable. She's not comfortable.

I did start last fall, just putting it in and taking it out. I left it in for about 15 minutes, but didn't do any further working with it in.

This spring i started back up, first day i put it in, took it out. Repeated the process. Next day left it in a little longer, so on and so forth.

She is fine when i put the bridle on. She doesn't move a muscle, opens her mouth sometimes without me even putting a finger in, and chews on it a few seconds, then settles.

When the bit is in, she's nervous while we continue on our work. So all i can do, is step back and get her comfortable before continuing on.

I would have no problem admitting i was nervous if i was nervous. I was simply unsure about how to proceed, being my first experience, and didn't want to mess her up.

I have worked greenies. I have worked horses that have only had a rider on their back a few times. I have never started from the very beginning like this. I want to do it right.
 
#71 ·
With this she sounds like she is comfotable wearing the bit. In that case then yes, side reins. Make her work anyway.

Kiwigirl, i plan to do just that once she's comfortable. She's not comfortable.

I did start last fall, just putting it in and taking it out. I left it in for about 15 minutes, but didn't do any further working with it in.

This spring i started back up, first day i put it in, took it out. Repeated the process. Next day left it in a little longer, so on and so forth.

She is fine when i put the bridle on. She doesn't move a muscle, opens her mouth sometimes without me even putting a finger in, and chews on it a few seconds, then settles.

When the bit is in, she's nervous while we continue on our work. So all i can do, is step back and get her comfortable before continuing on.

I would have no problem admitting i was nervous if i was nervous. I was simply unsure about how to proceed, being my first experience, and didn't want to mess her up.

I have worked greenies. I have worked horses that have only had a rider on their back a few times. I have never started from the
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#72 ·
Fair question. I generally use the chain over the nose for horses when i don't know how they are going to react. New horses, or ones going into new situations. With her it probably wasn't necessary, but, we were out in the open and i did not want to risk her getting away from me if she threw a fit about the saddle. We live on a rural road, but there is a main road just through the trees. Safety first.
 
#73 ·
If I knew how to do it, this post would have a smiley that was shaking its head, pounding it on the desk and puking all at the same time.
 
#75 · (Edited)
A little unnecessary? I don't know what this is in reference to, but i think you may want to consider that some people do things a little differently than others. Not everyone has the same views. No need to continue to keep this thread going in a direction it doesn't need to go.

I simply was trying to seek opinions, and i've had to field tons of other BS right along with it.

That post was totally uncalled for, and completely unfair. If the only reason you're posting is to be rude and insulting, you could refrain from posting at all.

With that said.... I managed to find a bit that is 1/4 inch smaller. That might be a little *too* much of a downsize, and it was very hard to find. I have ordered it and i'm just waiting for it to get here. The bit i'm using now might just be a hair too big, but i think this one will be a little too small. Frustrating! Maybe if it fits, it'll fit better at least.

I also ordered her very own red bridle. She's gonna look cute.

I just got in from working with her, and we had some light thunder start to roll in. Considering that, it's hard to say if she's improved any while wearing the bridle or not. Our session got got short by about a half hour because it started to rain/lightening.

We have walk and trot on the lunge and while being led totally down pat (under saddle). Today I also went back to walking over a tarp, around barrels (luckily we have a lot of these, some are bright and scary colored too), and took her all the way down the road past some big scary mail boxes to my neighbors house because she wanted to show me her baby goats. Here she met a few freaky terrier dogs that were barking at her. The only thing she spooked at and was hesitant about was walking past my neighbors fountain/bird bath/flower pot thing that is huge. Considering this was a completely new place she'd never been, and it was getting windy/stormy, I consider that acceptable. She huffed and puffed for a second and then i let her smell it at her own pace and she walked right by.

I'm hoping to reinforce with her that she can trust me and what i'm asking her to do, but today felt kind of monotonous and silly, considering she has no issues with any of it.

So i am trying to take all the advice, cater it to this situation, and put it to good use. I have to run now because this storm is getting ugly and i don't want to get my computer zapped into oblivion.

Thanks for all the advice to those who offered it. :D

Almost forgot, here is the Bit-Loathing cutie pie herself when i went to fetch her for our session, isn't she just the cutest thing? She's like a big shetland.

Kinda OT, although i love her huge bushy mane, should i try to thin it down some? I think it's a little out of hand....
 
#74 ·
Totally random Kevin but you made me laugh none the less. The mental picture of that smiley is hilarious.

To the OP, if you really want to get her used to the bit without seeking professional help then just leave it in. I had a horse in for training that was ridden for 10 years in a sidepull. She was a nutcase and would run backwards with her head tilted so her forehead was parallel to the ground, wheel around in circles, not go forward, leap off trails into trees and bushes, etc. She really only did straight lines and sharp turns and had no power steering at all. There was no middle ground because she only knew the indirect and confusing pressure of the side pull and was easily confused, scared and over faced and had no confidence in her rider or the bridle. There was no way to balance her or anything. I put a mild lozenge link 3 piece snaffle in her mouth, put a halter on over the bridle and took her for walks, lunged her, did some ground work with her every day until she accepted the bit. Sure she spent half her time contorting herself like a pretzel trying to figure out how to get the bit out. And she would gape, pretend to gag, froth, chew on it like she was somehow going to bite it in half and escape, etc. When she ignored me and did things like run into me, pull on me or be obnoxious or overly excited then she got worked hard until she started to ignore the bit and pay attention to me. Then when her attention was on me I would finish up our work for the day and give her some pats and praise and take it off and turn her out. She learned quickly that the focusing on the bit meant having to work and focusing on me meant she got to stop working and/or get some other reward. Then the same thing happened under saddle, and eventually she was riding with a bit in, balancing and overall a pleasure to ride and work with.
 
#77 ·
I do not inflict pain with the chain over the nose. It inflicts no pain unless you tighten/jerk the rope. It does not have to inflict pain, and even when a horse decides to act up, it doesn't have to end in pain. I don't see how it's any different than people lunging with the chain. Again, i'm sure, matter of opinion. It was how i was taught. It has nothing to do with pain or jerking a horse around, i'm sure for some people, yes! They could put the chain over the horses nose and completely yank them around. All it means to me is a little extra control, not pain just to get what i want. Pressure if the horse tightens the slack in the rope. Not pain. I do not inflict pain on my horses. If you have a steady hand and slack in the rope, i don't see how it is any different than having it hooked to the ring in the halter.

I personally don't believe there is anything wrong with my horsemanship, just because i would rather have a little more control over a horse when working in a field a quarter mile from a major roadway when i'm putting a saddle on her for virtually the first time.

I do everything in my power to give my horses the best lives they can possibly have and if i thought for one second i was inflicting pain in any form, it would cease immediately. I have been around horses for 23 years and have had many trainers and mentors, one being an Olympian. They molded me, so maybe they all had it wrong too. It's possible, i just know what i was taught and what i've witnessed over the years.
 
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