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This is a discussion on Frustrated within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category

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        08-28-2013, 08:33 PM
      #91
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Muppetgirl    
    Pray do tell how you make the connection with a FINISHED reining horse then?

    Lets forget the humanized taking out the trash analogy and let's APPLY YOUR method to a finished horse like the OPs.........
    I like Cowchick's get the life up idea because if they're dragging through the turns, most likely there isn't much quality in the rest of it. For the turn specifically, I'd ask for the turn then enforce it with the romal, or if you ride with split reins, get a quirt. The old timers knew what they were doing, they used a quirt or romal instead of spurs or a whip. They knew a spank will lighten a horse up, where as a poke or a hit will cause them to tighten and contract to protect themselves.
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        08-28-2013, 08:48 PM
      #92
    Trained
    Could you quote which post by Cowchick you are referring to? I want to be sure I am understanding. Thanks.
         
        08-28-2013, 09:10 PM
      #93
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by COWCHICK77    
    Funny you should mention that, because actually if I had a horse that was sloppy and not trying in the turn around, I take him out of it work him hard on some small circles(not letting him turn around) once I get effort I ask nicely for the turn around again.
    It's about making the right answer easy.

    Same with the example for the lope off. If he doesn't do it right and is lazy, strung out. I am going to clutch him- drive him over the bit and get after him with my spurs to get the hind end going up where it should and get his back up. Then I ask nicely, he lopes off correctly I leave him alone.
    Again making the right answer the easiest answer.
    Lazy shouldn't be an option.
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        08-28-2013, 09:18 PM
      #94
    Trained
    The way I am reading that, she is doing the same thing with the lope that Cherie, muppet and I have talked about. Exactly. With stops-pretty much what I would do for sure. Small circles at a fast trot or lope so that they are LOOKING to spin as it is easier. Yup-just what we have been saying.
    aerie and Muppetgirl like this.
         
        08-28-2013, 09:42 PM
      #95
    Super Moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mike Zimmerman    
    I like Cowchick's get the life up idea because if they're dragging through the turns, most likely there isn't much quality in the rest of it. For the turn specifically, I'd ask for the turn then enforce it with the romal, or if you ride with split reins, get a quirt. The old timers knew what they were doing, they used a quirt or romal instead of spurs or a whip. They knew a spank will lighten a horse up, where as a poke or a hit will cause them to tighten and contract to protect themselves.
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    How is a spank with a quirt different from a swat with a dressage whip? Is it just the ferocity that you are talking about?
    The few times I have "gotten after" a horse with a dressage whip as a punishment, I smack three times in rapid succession back on his flank area. Obviously, it's quick and I can't pinpoint aim. It's a whap! Whap! Whap! With the last one being a bit harder.
         
        08-29-2013, 12:11 AM
      #96
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tinyliny    
    How is a spank with a quirt different from a swat with a dressage whip? Is it just the ferocity that you are talking about?
    The few times I have "gotten after" a horse with a dressage whip as a punishment, I smack three times in rapid succession back on his flank area. Obviously, it's quick and I can't pinpoint aim. It's a whap! Whap! Whap! With the last one being a bit harder.
    It's a matter of psi, the quirt is flexible with a wide leather popper at the end. The popper is more of a noise maker and won't sting the horse. It'll liven up a horse but won't really hurt them. Because of the softness you couldn't spank them in as fast a succession as a whip either.
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        08-29-2013, 12:13 AM
      #97
    Banned
    I've seen welts from spilt reins, quirts, dressage whips, jockey bats........they sting IF YOU MEAN IT
         
        08-29-2013, 12:35 AM
      #98
    Super Moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mike Zimmerman    
    It's a matter of psi, the quirt is flexible with a wide leather popper at the end. The popper is more of a noise maker and won't sting the horse. It'll liven up a horse but won't really hurt them. Because of the softness you couldn't spank them in as fast a succession as a whip either.
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    so, the quirt will hurt less while making a bigger impression?
         
        08-29-2013, 05:53 AM
      #99
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by smrobs    
    I don't understand how you're missing the point here. We aren't talking about preventing a horse from complying with anything because they weren't trying to comply. The horse is being insolent and begrudging in their response. THAT is what is being corrected.
    yeah you are because the horse was more than willing to comply with the trot cue multiplied by 10 - so much so that you're now in fact seeing it as an over-reaction (rather than insolent and begrudging), and because of that sudden swing from 1 extreme to the other, "performance" as far as reining is concerned has gone out the window. But all that means is you've put too much pressure on the horse & that he has responded proportionally too that pressure - which is fine. I would be fine with that and not feel compelled to question it, if it wasn't also advised that you entirely negate that pressure (and the horses response to that pressure) by holding the horse back and then releasing that pressure (negatively reinforcing) on the act of "not complying with the original cue"

    Ultimately the whole sequence starts with a cue for a certain response, and finishes without that response being achieved. So according to any kind of scientific explanation of animal behaviour that i'm aware of: it doesn't work. Maybe there is some somewhere that explains why this works? But untill that's put in this thread (& I implore you to do so because that would answer my question), it's not so unreasonable that I ask for an explanation that actually explains the notion, rather than explains why you might correct a very specific aspect of a very specific maneouver independendently of that maneouver. Which is (sigh, again) an entirely different notion and one on which I agree with what has been said. But this isn't about any specific maneouver or any specific cue. It's about why preventing a horse from responding to a cue would make him more likely to give that same (or better) response to that same (or subtler) cue ever again in future.

    Quote:
    When you have a horse at the level we're talking here (which is where I understood the OP's horse to be since she is training it as a reiner), you can't separate the quality of response from the actual movement. At that point, they are one in the same. Either the quality is good and the response is immediate to light cues or the movement is not correct.
    yes OP is training the horse as a reiner and yes in reining you will ultimately expect both good performance and good sensitivity, but I didn't read OPs first post as "how do I get my horse to perform a specified maneouver better", I read it as "how do I get my horse to perform any (unspecified) maneouver sooner rather than later", and so i've been looking at the notion put forward on page 1 with that (and nothing else) in mind.

    Quote:
    You either expect and receive the correct, high quality movement every single time or you might as well just not bother at all. If you don't expect and demand high quality every single time, then you will never receive high quality.

    As Cherie has said repeatedly. The worst response you accept is the best you can expect.
    this is true. But the idea of attempting to induce an over reaction while trying to prevent any response at all contradicts that statement.

    You'd be accepting the horse trying to over-react when you told it too, and accepting the horse not responding at all when you hold it back from that, but because neither of those things include doing what you originally wanted, going by that logic, you can't expect it to respond correctly in future. you've (maybe inadvertantly?) accepted a response that is not the one you wanted, so now in future you can expect that response which is not the one you wanted.

    Quote:
    The horse is no longer in the stage of training where they might need increased pressure to understand what is being asked. It knows what is being asked but simply can't be bothered to respond quicker. Increasing the aids to the level or above the level the horse is accustomed to responding to won't get them to respect your cue any more. They'll simply continue to ignore the light cues because they know they can.
    we fundamentally differ on this. As I (just me personally) beleive that understanding and knowing what is being asked includes understanding and knowing that it has to actually comply. After all what good is a "finished" or "trained" horse if, no matter how well it knows how to spin or stop or lope depart or however many competitions it's won, it still "puts the finger up" when it's asked to do something? Even if it was a rare occurance or even the 1st time ever, to me that's not a finished horse. That's a horse still in training. Even if it was "finished" the day before or even 10 minutes before. That horse, there & then, has relapsed into being a "not finished" horse, & therfore shouldn't be treated like a finished, or trained, horse.
         
        08-29-2013, 06:35 AM
      #100
    Trained
    Here is my take.
    First, I think you are trying to base every thing you do on science. Living beings don't always work like that. Sure there are basic principles, but you cannot fit everything into a mold. JMHO.
    Secondly, yes, the OP is trying to train a reiner. To accomplish that, there are many maneuvers. There is no ONE correction that will correct issues in all the manuevers. I think you are trying get ONE thing that will accomplish a faster spin, better stop, better transition....and that is not how it works. Since the mechanics of each maneuver are different the principle used to refine that movement is different. Surely you, with all of your science can understand that principle.
    Thirdly-I have never seen a horse that will "stay finished". Even a horse ridden by a trainer every day will try and get away with slacking off.
    It sounds to me like you try and make every horse and every fix fit into a nice little box that can be scientifically explained by what you have read in books, or even observed. Every horse, just as every person, is different. This is why a good trainer by the very definition, has many many "tools" they will use to correct a horse. No one fix will work for every issue on every horse. Period.
         

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