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        08-29-2013, 09:11 PM
      #111
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Cherie    
    Let me go back to what I originally wrote. I gave examples of how to correct poor responsive behavior by 'over-correcting' it. It is not rocket science to understand that over-correcting one problem is going to differ for over-correcting a completely different one. But, the concept is the same -- OVER-CORRECT --- NOT JUST 'CUE HARDER'. Here is the first example I gave. The concept and not the problem is for the OP, since reining horses do not have to 'jog' anywhere in any pattern.
    i understand how and why over-correcting works and why you would have to do it differently for different problems. But I can't figure out (or get an answer too) why simultaneously nullifying that over-correction would work.

    Quote:
    Then I went on to further explain the concept of 'over-correction'. "Everything you do, should be approached the same way. You 'over-correct' the horse, bring him back to 'start' and ask again with the lightest possible aid. Then and only then can to get the opportunity to reward the right thing. Do this consistently and you will have a horse that the most seasoned observer will not be able to see you cue."
    yes; but you're not rewarding the right thing. The right thing in the example was to jog, and yet you're holding the horse back from that?

    Quote:
    So, my next question. How many 'high' level winning competition horses have YOU actually trained? How much of YOUR knowledge is from actual experience and how much is speculation on 'how you think it should work' from writings from behaviorists that also have ZERO experience?
    this is nothing to do with my experience. I could've never seen a horse before in my life for all it really matters in this thread, this isn't about me or my horses or my "methods". It's about your method & the now aparent fact that it's exempt from explanation.

    Quote:
    If high level trainers find this a very effective and necessary training method to get and to keep horses at that high level, I would be trying to observe them (what I did) or listen to them rather than listen to 'experts' in behavior that have never even watched or handled high level competitive horses in training?
    an "expert" in behaviour and the modification of behaviour is by definition a "trainer". Perhaps the "experts" in question don't need the ends to justify the means because they can actually explain the means, and perhaps the trainers in question can't explain the means, so use the ends to justify that? Both are totally respectable.
    I just assumed that "how does it work?" could be answered better than "it's very effective and necessary and high level trainers use it."

    Quote:
    The concept of 'over-correction' is one that every high level 'effective' trainer I have ever met, uses. In fact, most lower level horsemen that do a very good job at their level as well, also use 'over-correction' to get a more responsive horse. The fact that I knew non-trainers would not understand this concept or could use it wrongly is why I have not written about it before. I feel like I 'know' enough of the riders on this forum and believe there are a good number of them and their horses that are ready for this concept. That is why I chose to finally talk about it. I also knew that some people would not 'get it'.
    i do understand the concept of over-correction, and I use the concept of over correction, and like you said most of the better trainers i've seen and know use the concept of over-correction.
    But I still would like to know how preventing a horse from responding at all constitutes as over-correction?

    Quote:
    The riders that learn to use this technique will not only have more responsive horses; they will have a LOT happier horses. Horses that are nagged and asked over and over and with more and stronger aids are the most miserable horses you will see. Their attitude goes further and further downhill. I'm sorry (but not surprised) that behaviorists 'don't get it'. I have read a LOT of so-called 'scientific findings' about horse behavior that is just plain WRONG. I can't help it that I know what works from experience and it does not agree with what some guy in a university thinks 'should' work.
    i agree with what you've said about nagging. Sad horses with sad responses. I do understand that and i'm not suggesting that to OP.
    Also, point me out some current science that is just plain wrong - and more importantly - explain why.

    Quote:
    You just have to believe what you want. I really don't care what or who anyone wants to believe. I just hope I have helped the people that 'get it'.
    indeed i'm sure we all will believe what we want regardless. But for me anecdotal evidence based purely on personal experience that is unexplainable by any other means won't make me believe something. It might be enough to make me wonder and ask further questions, which is what I did.

    And yes muppetgirl, horses are not robots. And that is why a "perfect" or "finished" horse is not really an achievable ideal (again, a good ideal to strive for, but not truly achievable).
    Yes we are going around in circles, but that's because you're not answering my question with an answer that actually answers the question I asked. Plenty of good (unrelated) answers, but no on topic answers. Tell me where I contradicted myself?
         
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        08-29-2013, 09:26 PM
      #112
    Banned
    Christopher, this is a contradiction, quoted from you:

    I understand how and why over-correcting works and why you would have to do it differently for different problems. But I can't figure out (or get an answer too) why simultaneously nullifying that over-correction would work.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    You are saying 'yes I understand how and why over correcting works', and in the same breath you say 'but I can't figure out why simultaneously nullifying that over-correction would work?'


    It's because nullifying is part of the over-correction, yet you say you understand

    Over correcting is not thumping harder to get what you want and letting the horse work of a harder thump......over correcting is getting the horse to 'think' about things.

    The release is letting him move forward PROPERLY OFF THE CORRECT CUE, not by teaching him to dumb himself down into a block head by letting him ignore the first light cue. Stop, correct, pause, ask, release, stop, correct, pause, ask, release. See the sequence? Horses understand it, that's why it works.
    smrobs and Golden Horse like this.
         
        08-29-2013, 09:29 PM
      #113
    Trained
    I can only speak for myself, and I am going to try not to sound rude. I use these techniques. They work. As I have said numerous times-I DO NOT CARE WHY THEY WORK, nor do I care if you to not have some intellectual understanding of WHY it works. Use them or not-your choice. I really do not care. It would be your (and the horses you supposedly train) loss.
    I have not said you have contradicted yourself, Altho you do keep saying you understand....

    I feel we have done everything possible to explain in every WAY possible...but, since there is no "science" behind it you will not believe it. So be it.
    smrobs and Golden Horse like this.
         
        08-29-2013, 09:31 PM
      #114
    Banned
    Actually Frank I did say he contradicted himself, and he has. I will own that.
         
        08-29-2013, 09:32 PM
      #115
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Muppetgirl    
    Actually Frank I did say he contradicted himself, and he has. I will own that.
    Got it-I edited. We were posting at the same time.....
         
        08-29-2013, 09:49 PM
      #116
    Super Moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Muppetgirl    
    Christopher, this is a contradiction, quoted from you:

    I understand how and why over-correcting works and why you would have to do it differently for different problems. But I can't figure out (or get an answer too) why simultaneously nullifying that over-correction would work.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    You are saying 'yes I understand how and why over correcting works', and in the same breath you say 'but I can't figure out why simultaneously nullifying that over-correction would work?'


    It's because nullifying is part of the over-correction, yet you say you understand

    Over correcting is not thumping harder to get what you want and letting the horse work of a harder thump......over correcting is getting the horse to 'think' about things.

    The release is letting him move forward PROPERLY OFF THE CORRECT CUE, not by teaching him to dumb himself down into a block head by letting him ignore the first light cue. Stop, correct, pause, ask, release, stop, correct, pause, ask, release. See the sequence? Horses understand it, that's why it works.

    Because you can over correct a horse, (the spanking big time), AND let him go. or, you over correct the horse , the spanking, and , as in Christopher's words, you "nullify" the response. (Do not let the horse go forward)
    . Both are overcorrections, and both can work. You can overcorrect without nullifying the correction.

    I am not arguing that Cherie's method isn't effective. I just do not see that Christopher is contradicting himself, as you say he is.
         
        08-29-2013, 09:56 PM
      #117
    Banned
    It's not nullifying the response at all, it's CONTROLLING the response. I don't want to spank my horse into the lope and have him jump into it with his head popping up and him scrambling. It's controlling the horses body, every part of it and saying, 'NO, you don't move until I tell you, how, when and where'. A spank isn't a cue, it's a correction, don't want my horse moving out on a correction, I want him moving out on a cue.

    How difficult is this to process?
         
        08-29-2013, 10:50 PM
      #118
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Muppetgirl    
    You are saying 'yes I understand how and why over correcting works', and in the same breath you say 'but I can't figure out why simultaneously nullifying that over-correction would work?'


    It's because nullifying is part of the over-correction, yet you say you understand
    yes but the "nullifying" part is where the explainable aspect goes out the window entirely. And i'm sorry to anyone who doesnt believe in explaining things, i'm not trying to question a persons beliefs, i'm only seeking answers. Other than that; its all just punishment and reinforcement - operant conditioning. Simplest explanation one could ask for. If it were a wrong response then yes you would nullify that. If it was a poorly performed response then yes you would fix whatever aspect was broken independently of that maneouver. Those things are what I understand, and what you keep bringing up. But what that doesn't answer is why you would withhold an over reaction that you've intentionally induced, or how that would make the horse respect the original cue any moreso than it did before. Why didn't you just multiply the original cue by 9 (or 8 or 7 or whatever it takes not to induce an over-reaction, while still being enough to induce the response you wanted - with the sense of urgency or "promptness" you wanted) and let him respond to that?

    Why would a person go out of their way to use "10 times more pressure than he/she has to", only to punish the horses proportionally appropriate response too that pressure? It has thus far been un-explainable.

    Also a spank is a cue, because it has a corresponding response. It might be a cue you would only ever use to correct non-compliance to a prior cue, but it's still a cue.
         
        08-29-2013, 10:57 PM
      #119
    Showing
    It has been explained. Over and over and over but you still fail to get it.

         
        08-29-2013, 11:38 PM
      #120
    Banned
    Yup I'm done too. On that note, I leave you with these two favorites quotes:

    'Do you know the difference between education and experience? Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don't'.
    (Pete Seeger)


    The man who carries the cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way.
    (Mark Twain)
         

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