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This is a discussion on Frustrated within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category

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        09-01-2013, 12:53 PM
      #171
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ognend    
    You said that your horse can do the same exact stuff with the spurs as without. So I am asking why use the spurs then, apparently to you and your horse it's just extra metal.

    I suspect that your horse really can't do the same stuff without your spurs on. I am just waiting for you to say it.
    I never even said I use spurs, so you'll be waiting a while LOL!
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        09-01-2013, 01:04 PM
      #172
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Golden Horse    

    ... because lets be honest if I got on a horse with a big bit, and wearing big spurs I would give myself a life expectancy of about 2 minutes before the wreck happened.
    hang on I have to get some paper towel to wipes the spit off my screen
         
        09-01-2013, 01:26 PM
      #173
    Super Moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ognend    
    On the converse side, the wrong personal experience is what defines the same person too. When I was "green" I used to be offered all sorts of advice from people with the "experience". I even paid for some of it. When I actually learned and practiced proper horsemanship and put my head in the proper frame of mind, I realized that many of the folks who offered advice had no clue whatsoever. Some did stuff 'cause 'diddy did it', some did because it worked with one horse 18 years ago, some, well, had no reason for doing what they were doing, they just thought it sounded good. Then there were some who knew what they were talking about. That's the problem with horsemanship when there are no government bodies to regulate who can charge for the advice - all sorts of people do it without consequence. Hey, you might want to stick around - I am writing a book describing my experiences as a "greenhorn" - I think not many people will like what I have to say.




    My $.02

    I get the feeling from this paragraph that you now consider yourself to have learned the proper way of horsemanship, how it truly IS, and that you didn't know it in the past, but now you do. It's usually just about that time that something comes along and shakes up our beliefs that we "know" what is right. At least, if we allow that we might not know everything, it can.
    franknbeans, COWCHICK77 and DimSum like this.
         
        09-01-2013, 01:29 PM
      #174
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tinyliny    
    ... it's usually just about that time that something comes along and shakes up our beliefs that we "know" what is right. At least, if we allow that we might not know everything, it can.
    True enlightenment-whether it is riding a horse or walking down the road in life- is when you know there are things you don't know
         
        09-01-2013, 01:43 PM
      #175
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DimSum    
    Surely it does, which is the crux of what Cherie is trying to impart to you, haven't you been reading the posts? You just made her point, the horse learns from that "wrong" experience just what is expected of them.
    Do not try to turn the argument away from where it is going. I was not talking about the wrong experience for the horse - rather for the "trainer". Someone can spend years "training" and still be clueless since they do not do the right thing from the get-go and just keep perfecting the bad thing.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DimSum    
    Harsh is in the eye of the beholder, a simple swift correction without anger is not the same as being "harsh". You want harsh, go to any lower level show and see what happens when Dobbins doesn't perform to expectations once they exit the arena-or see what goes on in the warm up arena. One of the reasons I no longer care to show at any upper level but I digress here.
    We agree here. However, I think you are escaping my point - simple swift corrections need not exist if you are paying attention. And if you are not and your horse progresses (or rather regresses) to a bad place, it is not his fault so why whip him? Fix yourself, stay on it and the horse will come back to you. Question is: how much time and patience do you have? Or is it easier to "swiftly correct"?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DimSum    
    come up with something that isn't a straw man argument and I'll get back to you. Otherwise, all you are advocating is a position that really shows you haven't got a good grasp of what Cherie is trying to communicate.
    Eh? You have an argument? Past the "Cherie is vastly experienced, you are too stupid to understand what she is saying to you" "argument"?

    My $.02
         
        09-01-2013, 01:44 PM
      #176
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tinyliny    
    I get the feeling from this paragraph that you now consider yourself to have learned the proper way of horsemanship, how it truly IS, and that you didn't know it in the past, but now you do. It's usually just about that time that something comes along and shakes up our beliefs that we "know" what is right. At least, if we allow that we might not know everything, it can.
    I agree with you. However, this is not about knowing everything, this is about me daring to criticize someone who apparently has 50+ years of experience and ****ed if she is not the best.
         
        09-01-2013, 03:08 PM
      #177
    Started
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ognend    
    We agree here. However, I think you are escaping my point - simple swift corrections need not exist if you are paying attention. And if you are not and your horse progresses (or rather regresses) to a bad place, it is not his fault so why whip him? Fix yourself, stay on it and the horse will come back to you. Question is: how much time and patience do you have? Or is it easier to "swiftly correct"?
    Read the entire thread. Really appreciated that drink a few pages back.

    You know the old saying "Practice makes perfect"? I learned a while back that it is dead wrong. Practice makes permanent. Whatever it is you learn to do, done often enough, will become the go-to routine muscle memory with repetition. So, when we practice with an aim to improve, we must be constantly changing bits so they are closer to the ideal (whatever that is for a given discipline).

    So, if my goal is a healthy horse sound in mind and body that is able to do a certain task as near to correct as possible, why would I let him practice doing it wrong when correcting him quickly will end it immediately? As an example- I let my horse eat while we're out on the trail (a divisive issue all by itself, I know) but with the proviso that he must stop eating and move along when I tell him to. Those are the rules, exactly as they have been for a couple of years. Every so often, he wants to flip me the bird. He gets a solid smack (your "swift correction") for that and then we'll be good for a few weeks. I could stop letting him eat entirely and sidestep the issue, but I prefer not to. This is a case of a horse who knows the correct answer but chooses, on occasion, not to give it. I honestly cannot fathom how saying, with a quick smack, which horses well understand and use on eachother with biting or kicking, "No- Wrong Answer!" is going to be detrimental to the horse or our relationship.

    Now, for a horse that honestly doesn't understand what is being asked, is fearful, is overwhelmed, or any of those things, a different approach is certainly in order. But that is the dance- you have to know what you're asking, your horse has to know what you're asking, and you have to know that your horse knows what you're asking. Like the earlier example of the seasoned trail horse not wanting to move out away from the trailer, yes, you can work them there until they agree leaving is the easier way. That is certainly one option. But if the horse knows its job, giving them a quick smack is both less time consuming and less tiring for you both if you have a long day out ahead of you. Why waste time re-teaching a lesson the horse already knows well and is just seeing if they can conveniently 'forget' for the day?

    A horse who understands a properly asked request and decides to ignore it should be disciplined. I want my horse to go because I said so. Not because he thought it would be a good idea. At the end of the day IMPO a horse should listen to the human because the human is the leader, and horses (at least mine) tend to make stupid and potentially dangerous decisions left to think for themselves in a world full of man-made monsters and dangers.

    The idea that no horse will ever make a bad/lazy/wrong choice just seems silly to me, as is the idea that it is never the horse's fault. Of course 99% it IS the human causing the problem, but yes, sometimes horses choose to do something foolish too, and you cannot always prevent it, only try to reduce the likelihood of it happening again. (See: ways horses try to kill themselves in pasture, or in stall, or in field, or in the wild, etc)
         
        09-01-2013, 05:49 PM
      #178
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Sharpie    
    Those are the rules, exactly as they have been for a couple of years. Every so often, he wants to flip me the bird. He gets a solid smack (your "swift correction") for that and then we'll be good for a few weeks.
    The fact that you have to smack the horse every so often shows you that he never learned the "lesson" and that you are very ineffective in teaching the lesson.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Sharpie    
    A horse who understands a properly asked request and decides to ignore it should be disciplined. I want my horse to go because I said so.
    Then perhaps a motorcycle would be a better choice? Seriously though, to come back to that trail horse response. The horse around the trailer is uneasy and squirmy, you as a human need to first figure out why he is so BEFORE you punish him for being so. If your child if afraid of the dark and cries in the bedroom, do you run out and slap it? I mean, the child may not do it every night, just occasionally when something scares her "in the dark".

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Sharpie    
    The idea that no horse will ever make a bad/lazy/wrong choice just seems silly to me, as is the idea that it is never the horse's fault. Of course 99% it IS the human causing the problem
    Now read that again.

    You folks so far sound like a group of people convinced that the horses of the world are in a conspiracy against you - they don't want to work, they are evasive, "flip you fingers", try to cheat you out of your well deserved time on the trail just to s*rew with you. All that from an animal with a squirrel sized brain :)

    My $.02
         
        09-01-2013, 06:05 PM
      #179
    Banned
    Oh the meadow muffins.......
         
        09-01-2013, 06:10 PM
      #180
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ognend    
    The fact that you have to smack the horse every so often shows you that he never learned the "lesson" and that you are very ineffective in teaching the lesson.

    No it shows that the horse will test the boundaries every now and again, because they are not machines, they have free will


    Then perhaps a motorcycle would be a better choice? Seriously though, to come back to that trail horse response. The horse around the trailer is uneasy and squirmy, you as a human need to first figure out why he is so BEFORE you punish him for being so. If your child if afraid of the dark and cries in the bedroom, do you run out and slap it? I mean, the child may not do it every night, just occasionally when something scares her "in the dark".

    Well of course you need to read the situation, guess what this is where the experience we have been talking about comes in, same as with a baby, you learn to read what the crying means and act accordingly. It is you who maybe needs a motorcycle, as it has no free will, and do what you tell it every time


    Now read that again.

    You folks so far sound like a group of people convinced that the horses of the world are in a conspiracy against you - they don't want to work, they are evasive, "flip you fingers", try to cheat you out of your well deserved time on the trail just to s*rew with you. All that from an animal with a squirrel sized brain :)

    My $.02
    Hey wasn't there a a thread about "You people" a while ago?

    The fact that my horse may have a squirrel size brain, means that he doesn't retain information well, because 99% of it is taken up with eating...

    Again I don't actually own a horse that has the level of training that this discussion is about, so for my own horses, well Gibbs has little clue how to lope in an arena, so I have to ask, ask again and give him space to move into the pace. Ben is so unsure about cantering under saddle that I would ever correct him yet, if he can get the pace, then go ahead young man. Emmy, knows her leads, if she gets it wrong it is totally my fault at this stage for not asking clearly, I'll let her go a few strides, then I'll slow her and ask again, no worries.

    If and only IF I was riding the calibre of horse that we are talking about, and IF and only IF I had the experience and talent to ask the right way, darn right I would shut them down quick if they chose to ignore the correct request.
    franknbeans and Muppetgirl like this.
         

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