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    09-01-2013, 07:13 PM
Originally Posted by DimSum    
hang on I have to get some paper towel to wipes the spit off my screen

Originally Posted by Muppetgirl    
Oh the meadow muffins.......
Plenty for you if you need them Muppet
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    09-01-2013, 07:26 PM
Before I go on to argue my point, I just have to say this. Everyone needs to stop with the finger pointing and whining. This thread is nothing personal. It's about having a great, logical, debate about the logistics of getting an immediate response from your horse. There have been lots of interesting and good points thrown out by both sides. So please, let's leave the bickering behind us. Thanks!

On to my point now. Lol I believe one of the major questions that has come up is the why Cherie's tip is effective and why is it only for finished horses. I am not Cherie, but this is my take on it. A finished horse knows what is expected of it. It is not learning anything new like a green horse. A finished horse wouldn't become frantic or panicked because it doesn't understand a perfectly made request. A young horse will do those things. If you ask a finished horse to immediately step into the canter (assuming the horse was perfectly cued) and fails to do so (assuming there is no rider error), the rider would then immediately stop the horse. The rider would then get after the horse, not allowing him to step forward. You then start again, as soon as the horse has settled from reacting to being gotten after, by cueing the horse correctly. The horse will then move off of your leg, immediately, as requested. All of this happens within about 10 to 15 seconds of the horse failing to respond to the cue. The reason you do not let the horse go forward is because the horse will then be moving off of the whip/spurs, rather than the suble cue from your calf. The idea is that the horse correlates the touch of your calf to an immediate transition, rather than being whipped/spurred. You would not do this with a young horse that is learning because they have no clear expectation of what they were supposed to do in the first place. You would only put the youngster into a state of panic, confusion, or they would have a horsey meltdown.

Also, as stated earlier in this thread, all finished horses become finished by learning their actions have consequences. I think we can all agree to this. How does a foal learn to not walk all over it's handler? How does a young horse learn biting his handler is unacceptable? Not by being coddled, that's for sure. And how does that baby horse then become a finished reining horse one day? No horse becomes finished without learning that there are consequences to their actions.
    09-01-2013, 10:09 PM
I would just like to remind folks (actually a certain "folk") that this thread was not and is not referring to trail horses. That is a totally different subject. Using examples about them is irrelevant.
    09-01-2013, 10:30 PM
Originally Posted by Golden Horse    
Hey wasn't there a a thread about "You people" a while ago?
There was :) I just picked that title so people would read it. But that thread wasn't a negative 'you people'; it was a positive 'you people' :) as in, 'you people' that are awesome or even just pretty decent riders tell me about a time where you weren't so great, or weren't even okay @ riding, and how far you've come... (Give me hope!)... Anyway, back to the regular scheduled programming....
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    09-01-2013, 10:55 PM
Originally Posted by DimSum    
Wrong on both counts, specious reasoning at its finest

In any discussion regarding horsemanship, personal experience is the very thing that defines an accomplished horseperson. A horseperson's bona fides are earned, not book learned or borrowed from the current trainer du jour's latest youtube vid

A lack of personal experience is most certainly grounds to contradict a point. Earlier this year we had a younger person posting here, and while she made some cogent points periodically she would post up something that was so fundamentally wrong and inappropriate it became apparent she really had zero personal experience and was only parroting things she read or saw on the internet. This attention seeking child had never even ridden and it was her lack of practical application of the advice she prattled on about that eventually tripped her up.

Bottom line? Book (or for that matter chronic seminar auditing) smart IRL experience.
you said "A lack of personal experience is most certainly grounds to contradict a point"
Yet you also said "she made some cogent points" in reference to a person who "had zero personal experience". Were her cogent points contradicted solely by her lack of personal experience? Or were they still cogent points? If she hadn't posted something "fundamentally wrong and inappropriate" or made apparent that she "had zero personal experience" would you have looked at her cogent points any differently? If someone with great personal experience posted something "fundamentally wrong and inappropriate" would you see it as cogent for no reason other than that the person who posted it has great personal experience?

Bagheera: thank you for trying to be unbiased - I like that.
I am happy to agree to disagree on what a finished horse is. "A finished horse knows what is expected of it" whereas to me a finished horse DOES (rather than just knows) what is expected of it - assuming the cue is correct.
And I agree that actions need consequences (both positive and negative), what that doesn't answer though is why the method put forward is an effective consequence.

Franknbeans: are the principles by which a reining horse learns different to those by which a trail horse learns?
    09-01-2013, 10:59 PM
Originally Posted by Shadow    
Hello, I'm looking for some advice. *I'm finally able to ride all I want. *March, April, May, I rode her darn near every day, since then about 3-4 times a week. *I started her at 3 and been the only one of her back. She turned 8 in Feb. I started rein training her earlier this year also. *I would say she's trained fairly well western style. *I'm to the point of trying to speed things up and when I ask her, because I know for a fact she knows what I am asking, I expect her to do it NOW, not when she gets around to it but when I ask. *(There is my frustration!) *I have to take it to a place I don't like when I have to keep nagging at her to respond when I ask. *She will sure do it when I take it there but I hate doing that.
**Is this just another step in her training process? *Will she eventually give it up and respond when I ask her without me taking it to that other place?
**Just this year, I finally seen a lot more maturity in her. *I really think in a couple years I could take her straight up in the bridle if I can get this worked out. *
**I also know that earlier this year I was pushing too hard for results and have since backed off a bit but I do still expect her to respond quicker.
Thank you, * Shadow
This is the the OP's first post, she just started rein training this horse earlier this year, this is not a finished reiner even though it's 8 years old.*
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    09-01-2013, 11:20 PM
Originally Posted by christopher    
i am happy to agree to disagree on what a finished horse is. "A finished horse knows what is expected of it" whereas to me a finished horse DOES (rather than just knows) what is expected of it - assuming the cue is correct.
And I agree that actions need consequences (both positive and negative), what that doesn't answer though is why the method put forward is an effective consequence.
Well said- and a good thing to be clear on. Out of curiosity, from your point of view, can a finished horse sometimes need re-training? Ie, for whatever reason, stop being 'finished', and if so, what would it take/proof would be needed for them to regain the status of a finished horse as you define it? Would a horse be finished if it only DOES for certain riders while others it might give trouble (assuming equally skilled/technically competent riders).

I think your standard is higher than what most people think of, but certainly wouldn't argue that is a bad thing.
    09-01-2013, 11:54 PM
I think we are finally understanding each other. While I believe it is great to hold a horse to a high standard based off of the training it has received, it does not make sense, imo, to assume it will always choose the correct response because of said training. Every time someone gets on a horse's back, they become a "trainer," (great, good, bad, or ugly) and that saying is widely accepted because horses are always learning. From the time they are born until the day they die, they are learning new things from their environment and the people who handle/ride them. I believe it is unfair to hold a horse to that high of a standard. They have every right to make mistakes, make decisions, and learn new things. If a horse does only what it is trained to do, I don't feel that it will take a rider to the level they'd like to achieve. (assuming we are talking top level riders) This thread is geared more towards reiners, but I am more familiar with jumping horses. A horse that is finished, say a Grand Prix jumping horse, he might be great at his job, but he will never win the big classes. It takes heart for a horse to be the best. Even for a reining horse. No one wants to see a robotic horse in the show ring. It takes a bit of spunk, playfulness, and curiosity to make a top horse. I'm not saying you should expect a horse to be playful or naughty, but you have to make an allowance for imperfection. Even at the top. :)
    09-02-2013, 12:31 AM
Originally Posted by ognend    

You folks so far sound like a group of people convinced that the horses of the world are in a conspiracy against you - they don't want to work, they are evasive, "flip you fingers", try to cheat you out of your well deserved time on the trail just to s*rew with you. All that from an animal with a squirrel sized brain :)

My $.02

I hope I don't come across that way. I don't think everyone here thinks a horse is out to get us or get out of work or flip us off.

The disciplining of a mounted horse that knowingly ignores a rider's cue should be all about getting his full and attention, so you can ask again and expect a correct response. NO?. So, if you over and under him, or snap him with the mecate, or use a dressage whip to smack him , or a quirt, it should be about seriously getting his attention, more than about causeing a lot of pain.
If there is another way to get a horse's attention, really quickly and sharply, so that it's very meaningful and memorable, what would that be?
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    09-02-2013, 12:38 AM
Originally Posted by tinyliny    
If there is another way to get a horse's attention, really quickly and sharply, so that it's very meaningful and memorable, what would that be?
Although I find it less than reliable, I've seen plenty of people who yell or scream at their horses. :)
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