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This is a discussion on Frustrated within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category

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        09-02-2013, 06:30 AM
      #191
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Sharpie    
    Well said- and a good thing to be clear on. Out of curiosity, from your point of view, can a finished horse sometimes need re-training? Ie, for whatever reason, stop being 'finished', and if so, what would it take/proof would be needed for them to regain the status of a finished horse as you define it? Would a horse be finished if it only DOES for certain riders while others it might give trouble (assuming equally skilled/technically competent riders).

    I think your standard is higher than what most people think of, but certainly wouldn't argue that is a bad thing.
    it's not just my standard for finished. The nrha handbook says "The best reined horse should be willingly guided or controlled with little or no apparent resistance" and the measurement of that is "0 to infinity". Which is why i've said before in this thread that "finished" is an unacheivable ideal. It is also why i've tried to put quotations around the word finished in this thread - it is a word I personally would be hesitant to use in describing any actual, non-hypothetical, horse. It is also why a "finishing" method reserved for "finished" horses is just, thus far, nonsense.

    And assuming equally skilled and competent riders, the (hypothetical) "finished" horse will respond correctly regardless. But that shouldn't (note I say "shouldn't", not "doesn't") exempt those riders (trainers - "every rider is a trainer") from explaining their training methods using some new or existing explanation of animal behaviour, and not just anecdotes, personal experience or correlation.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Bagheera    
    While I believe it is great to hold a horse to a high standard based off of the training it has received.
    my standards for a horses 'training' (adjective) are not based on the training it has received, but on the responses the horse gives in any given moment or to any given cue. And if a horses responses are poor (again assuming it isn't rider error), regardless of how much or how well it's been "trained" (verb), it is not "trained" (adjective).

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Bagheera    
    horses are always learning. From the time they are born until the day they die, they are learning new things from their environment and the people who handle/ride them.
    i entirely agree with this. And that is why if I was riding a trained horse and it gave me the finger I would firstly retract my opinion on the horses "trained" status, and use some application of the 'principles of learning' to teach the horse A: not to give me the finger and B: to comply. And that would never involve giving entirely conflicting cues ("forward cue" multiplied by 10 while holding back hard enough to not let the horse go forward = conflicting cues) to the horse, unless the final objective was to conflict an existing cue.
         
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        09-02-2013, 09:39 AM
      #192
    Banned
    So therefore, a finished reining horse who 'knows its ****' is not finished in your eyes if it takes a misstep even with a piss poor rider on board or with a world class trainer on board?. Gee your 'standards' are so high I'm curious to see some of the horses you've trained and shown, but we might be holding our breath for that right?

    The micro analyzing and semantics here is rather ridiculous.

    Why don't you tell us how you set up and correct a horse who blows through a lead departure? Instead of referring to manuals and books.
         
        09-02-2013, 10:33 AM
      #193
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by christopher    
    you said "A lack of personal experience is most certainly grounds to contradict a point"
    Yet you also said "she made some cogent points" in reference to a person who "had zero personal experience". Were her cogent points contradicted solely by her lack of personal experience? Or were they still cogent points?
    Shakes head. You really should learn what a logical disconnect is as you have a chronic case of it A person who posts up advice without the experience to back it up is merely parroting what they have been told, like a child mimicking their elders (or in this case what the uber trainer Gawd just posted on his blog). They lack the practical experience to recognize when that "one answer fits all" is not applicable in this situation-or is even dangerous to attempt.

    Your whole argument reminds me of the "Don't worry, I stayed at a Holiday Inn" commercial where the guy is standing there about to perform surgery. Well, a person with no experience who posts up other people''s advice without the practical experience to back it up is cut from the same cloth. Left up to me I'll take the guy who went to medical school to do my surgery, kthxbai

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by christopher    
    if she hadn't posted something "fundamentally wrong and inappropriate" or made apparent that she "had zero personal experience" would you have looked at her cogent points any differently?
    Actually yes in her particular case, as I do not worship at the NH altar and have seen far too many horses messed up by people who watch a few videos and think waving a magic stick is the way to go.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by christopher    
    if someone with great personal experience posted something "fundamentally wrong and inappropriate" would you see it as cogent for no reason other than that the person who posted it has great personal experience?
    Again, specious reasoning and straw man arguments but I will indulge you this last time. If I disagree with something someone here has posted I would not hesitate to speak up, and have done so on occasion. I don't care if it was George Morris himself, if I thought it was unsafe or wrong I would say so.
         
        09-02-2013, 12:24 PM
      #194
    Super Moderator
    Just a quick reminder to keep the discussion civil and respectful. Differ with dignity, please.
         
        09-02-2013, 03:31 PM
      #195
    Showing
    Unfortunately, you can't read a set of instructions and have a clue how to train a horse. When dealing with cars or computers, you aren't dealing with 1000+ pounds of muscle with a mind of its own. Just because the creature has free will and makes a choice doesn't make him any less finished. That training and knowledge is still there, but it's up to the rider to ensure that the horse follows that training.

    Training a horse is not like writing a computer program where you can expect an identical result to an identical set of commands every time those commands are entered for eternity. Something with a mind of it's own will begin to anticipate what you want, they may decide that they just don't feel like being "crisp" that day, or they may have their attention broken because one of the other horses in the barn whinnied.

    It's not a mathematical equation where x always = 5 like in 2x+3=13. With horses, there is no correct answer because x is variable.

    That's where experience comes into play. When I mentioned that 4 years was just a drop in the ocean, I don't know where you got the idea that I was comparing you to Cherie. I was speaking generally. 4 years is not enough time to learn enough to have a solid base and enough knowledge to understand or utilize some of the more advanced techniques. Unless you spent 20 hours out of every day under intense instruction on different horses of different training levels, 4 years experience simply can't compare to more.

    I'm not talking about 50 years of crappy horsemanship. Everyone knows that a crappy horseman is a crappy horseman regardless of whether he's been riding for 5 minutes or 5 decades. BUT, a good horseman with 4 years experience simply won't have the experience or knowledge as a good horseman with 20+ years experience.

    So, I'll leave with the invitation for someone who says that the method Cherie described is never necessary to prove her wrong. Show off your high level reining or ranch horse that executes the thing you ask for perfectly, 100%, every time, without a hint of hesitation or attitude.
         
        09-02-2013, 06:31 PM
      #196
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DimSum    
    Shakes head. You really should learn what a logical disconnect is as you have a chronic case of it A person who posts up advice without the experience to back it up is merely parroting what they have been told, like a child mimicking their elders (or in this case what the uber trainer Gawd just posted on his blog). They lack the practical experience to recognize when that "one answer fits all" is not applicable in this situation-or is even dangerous to attempt.

    Your whole argument reminds me of the "Don't worry, I stayed at a Holiday Inn" commercial where the guy is standing there about to perform surgery. Well, a person with no experience who posts up other people''s advice without the practical experience to back it up is cut from the same cloth. Left up to me I'll take the guy who went to medical school to do my surgery, kthxbai
    You still haven't addressed the issue though.

    And I did offer an alternative to her "rein up and whip" approach.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DimSum    
    Actually yes in her particular case, as I do not worship at the NH altar and have seen far too many horses messed up by people who watch a few videos and think waving a magic stick is the way to go.
    But hang on, weren't we talking about finished horses and top trainers? These are not hopefully the guys with a few DVDs under their armpit. Pray tell, which NH or non NH method do you use (can be your own, no problem)? Do you cure a buck with a quirt on the nose? Do you saddle for the first time by tying to the post and blind folding? What exactly bothers you with the "NH altar"?

    Heck, I will take anyone who has the interest to watch those DVDs to better themselves. On the other hand. God save you from all the "local" backyard trainers who urinate all over Clinton Anderson and Pat Parelli while serially destroying horses with their "50 years of experience received from Daddy".


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DimSum    
    Again, specious reasoning and straw man arguments but I will indulge you this last time. If I disagree with something someone here has posted I would not hesitate to speak up, and have done so on occasion. I don't care if it was George Morris himself, if I thought it was unsafe or wrong I would say so.
    That's what I did - I disagreed with something someone said and I spoke up. Apparently I ran afoul an "NH altar hater" who refuses to discuss what people say because they do not have the same years of experience as (s)he does while at the same time talking about straw man arguments. Interesting...

    My $.02
         
        09-02-2013, 06:49 PM
      #197
    Trained
    Christopher-their are very few similarities between trail horses and reining horses, other than, of course that they are horses that are trained to be ridding. THere are totally different expectations. The OP has asked about REINING, not trail. That was what I was pointing out. Since your buddy, ognend has trail horses, and that is where his experience-all 4 years of it-is, that is what he is spewing. Training a trail horse is not relevant to training a reiner, other than a very few, very basic, principles
    smrobs and Muppetgirl like this.
         
        09-02-2013, 06:56 PM
      #198
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by franknbeans    
    Training a trail horse is not relevant to training a reiner, other than a very few, very basic, principles
    Like rider on top, biting end usually going forward etc?


    Quote:
    Heck, I will take anyone who has the interest to watch those DVDs to better themselves. On the other hand. God save you from all the "local" backyard trainers who urinate all over Clinton Anderson and Pat Parelli while serially destroying horses with their "50 years of experience received from Daddy".
    Blatantly cherry and running, have to go take food to the combine driver:

    Really? You would take ANYONE who watches the videos, regardless of their level of understanding of what they are seeing and their ability to actually reproduce it.

    The one thing that good trainers have, whatever label you want to pin on them is timing, and that is where the experience comes in you simply cannot learn that from watching a video or worshipping at the feet of any guru, you have to get out there and do it.

    I would far rather God, or any supreme being of choice, sent me someone who can actually DO IT rather than sell videos about it.
    franknbeans, smrobs and Muppetgirl like this.
         
        09-02-2013, 07:15 PM
      #199
    Trained
    Pretty much, GH! Rider TRIES to stay on top......

    Some folks think watching DVD's on the couch makes them good at horsemanship, riding, etc......That is all good, but actually DOING is invaluable. I however, love watching folks come out to the barn who have just watched one of those "training" dvd's, or read one of the books.........who deal with the actual live horse, and it does not go well. Provides endless hours of entertainment. And the horse actually ends up less trained than the person. Very amusing.
    smrobs and Muppetgirl like this.
         
        09-02-2013, 07:17 PM
      #200
    Banned
    Or the horse needs to be retrained! That's why I won't let anyone ride my horse unless they're better than me!
    franknbeans and smrobs like this.
         

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