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Frustrated

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        09-02-2013, 08:44 PM
      #201
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ognend    
    Then there must be a paradox here somewhere - the OP seems to be "top level" but she cannot figure out the basic thing such as "my horse wont go immediately when I cue him - what do I do". I find it hard to believe that the OP is seasoned - esp. With a topic like "frustrated".

    Well, the discussion has somewhat taken a turn towards the high level or reiner direction whether the OP is at that level or not. But even at that every trainer can get stumped at some point. No one knows it all. Trainers that I have worked for have other trainers come over with a trailer load of horses so they can pick each other brains and have other people watch them ride. I think everyone can admit that they need some outside help or an objective eye. If not and you think you got it all figured out-your doing it wrong.

    To answer your question about the horse who is squirmy and won't line up outside of trailer: I would work them around the trailer a bit at a good paced trot, lots of changes of direction etc. Then I would put the horse in a straight walk away from trailer. No need to spank (you are the one who said about getting into their head). Again, spanking is for people who don't have the time.

    Fair enough answer.
    But I do disagree with the "spanking is for people who don't have the time." You seem to think if I spank my horse constantly or want to put people who do spank their horses in the same category as horse beaters who bloody mouths and hides.

    Talking about top people and their knowledge: did I tell you that once I visited a top level (hall of famer) cutter trainer - watched him train his horses on cows. Each session was about 20-30 minutes, the usual stuff. He rode them serially - 10-15 a day.


    There was a little filly in the sequence who he rode hard - it was obvious she was not your "bred" cutter. He got off and lo and behold, the filly's bit had blood on it and the corner of her mouth had a cut and was bleeding (yes, you can pull on the bit THAT hard). Do you think the filly got a good deal with this top guy? You know what he told the owners? That the filly isn't cut out to be a cutter (excuse the pun). What I think really happened was this: top cutter X has a mold that every horse has to fit into. He has 15 a day to ride. One of them does not fit mold. Top cutter X knows only one way to train a horse who responds well to it, top cutter X punishes the horse that does not fit and marks her as a reject.
    Not all trainers are that hard on their horses. You look into any discipline and you will find the good and the bad, top level or low level. I am not condoning it, but it is a fact that it happens in the horse industry.

    Clinton Anderson? Never seen the man work, don't know him. However, I can tell you why a lot of people "in the biz" hate him - he has demystified horsemanship for the masses. Until he and Pat came along, it was any unwashed guy who could hang a shingle with his name outside and call himself a "whisperer". Then come along people like Clinton or Pat and all of a sudden horsemanship turns out to be mechanical for 90% of the population who do not seek out top level competition performance - they just want a safe horse to doodle around on. I have heard that a guy like Fappani apparently uses Clinton to start his horses on the ground.

    I was referring to the NH guru market as a whole, not necessarily Clinton Anderson himself. NH is not a new concept but the marketing is. Plenty of trainer send their colts out to be started by someone else or employ someone in the barn to do so. I worked for a trainer that sent some to a student of one of the Dorrances. The problem is that most of the NH gurus are catering to the folks who are afraid to discipline their horses because it might "hurt their horses feelings".

    Then there is Pat Parelli - I actually saw him compete in Okeechobee Florida in a local reining competition. I saw a guy boxing a cow and my wife said it was him, I said, "nah, a rich guy like that, what would he do in this local dump" - but it turned out it was him after all. Very nice fella. I think he knows horses, I have never seen his DVDs though.

    I have a different opinion of Pat, but this isn't the thread for the discussion of it.

    But, I digress, let;s not change the topic. Never spank a horse to correct him, I stand by it.
    Would you ever spank a horse if he kicked or bit you?


    My $.02
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by franknbeans    
    I would just like to remind folks (actually a certain "folk") that this thread was not and is not referring to trail horses. That is a totally different subject. Using examples about them is irrelevant.
    Sorry, my bad, I used a trail ride reference...


    To Christopher:
    You were asking about the negating of a spanking but not letting him go forward. I witnessed something that happened among my own horses this morning and it reminded me of this thread so I thought I would share.

    I throw the hay over the fence to all the horses(they are all in the same area, a few acres, 4 horses). Young colt walks by the herd boss. Boss gives him the stink eye and slightly shifts his weight and one swish of the tail to threaten that he is turning his butt to him to kick. Colt ignores him, Boss herds the colt to the corner in a hurry and won't let him get out by cutting him off and biting the neck if tries to go forward, cutting him off and biting the hind if he tries to evade by running backwards to spin around and get out of the corner the other direction. Boss finally lets him go, goes back to his hay, colt has to walk by to get back to his hay. Boss again subtly signals like he did before, colt takes off at a gallop.

    So the Boss subtly cued him to "move off", colt didn't respond fast enough. Boss took him to the corner and wouldn't let him get away from the punishment but was reinforcing the "when I say move -I mean move!" signal. Next time the boss gave the cue, colt moved off in a hurry.

    And that is not the first time I have seen that horse punish another horse that way. But it works within the herd so why wouldn't work under saddle?
         
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        09-02-2013, 09:39 PM
      #202
    Weanling
    Hummm.... I think we have to agree to disagree. I can't seem to convince you that even a finished horse will "give their rider the finger," and you can't convince me otherwise. All I can do is ask that, in the future, please do not discount a horse's abilities because they tell you no once. Give them a chance to show you how great they can be, even if they make one mistake. When you stop believing in them, they stop trying for you.

    As for explaining why holding a horse back when you get after it works, I think I already did so, but I will explain again. If you ask a horse to make a canter transition with just the touch of your calf, and it does not, you have three options as a response. You can nag the horse, which we all agree, does nothing. You can whip/spur the horse, let them jump forward into the canter, which teaches the horse to go forward at the touch of the whip/spurs. Or you can whip/spur the horse while holding it back, and then ask them to transition again at the touch of your calf. This teaches the horse to go forward at the touch of your calf. COWCHICK77 did a good job of explaining how this technique is also seen within the herd dynamic.

    I hope this clears up your questions. Keep in mind this is just a training technique and will not work for every horse. All training techniques have a time and place to be used by the right person. And along with that, all training techniques can be used in an abusive manner. As stated earlier, it is about knowing the horse, what it is capable of, how it has been trained, and, most importantly, how the horse thinks.

    When it comes to "experience" I have to agree that having on hand experience far outweighs read/seen experience. I put experience in quotations because there is no scale for what a person has learned. I know certain people who have been working with horses for only 6 years who know a lot more about horses than some people who have been working with horses for 20 years. The same is true in reverse. It all depends on the kind of hands on work you have done, who you have learned from, and how quickly you learn. Somethings can not be learned through reading. Having a "feel" for a horse is one of them. You can read all you want, but until you've done the time in the saddle, you will not truly be able to "feel" the horse. That kind of hands on experience is priceless.

    As for NH, I think it has it's place. I also think that NH training techniques can turn dangerous, when used incorrectly or used by someone who does not understand the purpose of the technique. The reverse is also true. The main reason people hate NH, a specific trainer, or a style of training, is because a lot of people allow themselves to become die hard loyalists. You can't train a horse well if you only follow one training method. Every horse is different and has a mind of its own. You have to train each horse as an individual. It is important to pull techniques from all different training methods to give a horse the most personalized, complete training to help it succeed. I think we can all agree on this. People just need to stay away from jumping on the band wagon of a single method, but people will always jump on a band wagon, and the horse will always lose because of it.
         
        09-03-2013, 02:06 AM
      #203
    Foal
    Note to self: NEVER. EVER POST A THREAD, THEN BE WITHOUT INTERNET ACCESS FOR A WEEK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's a lot of reading!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I don't have the words and not even going to try (I'd lose) not good with words.

    Two additional comments. 1. I will never be the trainer many are, seriously. I realize that and can only try to do the best I can. I'm still learning all the time. 2. I do believe that in this particular case, Cherie and those agreeing with her advice were dead on. I had another very good ride today. Not perfect but I'd be awfully greedy for asking for more out of her.

    Shadow
         
        09-03-2013, 02:27 AM
      #204
    Showing
    Shadow, glad to see you back and so glad you didn't run away after this whole debate LOL.

    That's great news that you had a better ride. I'm sure they'll continue to improve every time you step in the stirrup .
         
        09-03-2013, 03:04 AM
      #205
    Trained
    Glad you worked your way through the thread Shadow, and that you had a better ride.

    Now remember never turn your back on a thread!
         
        09-03-2013, 03:20 AM
      #206
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Muppetgirl
    So therefore, a finished reining horse who 'knows its ****' is not finished in your eyes if it takes a misstep even with a piss poor rider on board or with a world class trainer on board?.
    if the horse is trained and the rider is at fault: it is the rider who needs training, not the horse.
    And call me idealistic but if the horse is trained and the rider is trained: this wouldn't be a problem.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Muppetgirl
    The micro analyzing and semantics here is rather ridiculous.
    i wholeheartedly agree that it's ridiculous. But that is what it comes down to when you present an "advanced training method" reserved for "advanced" "trained" horses.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Muppetgirl
    Why don't you tell us how you set up and correct a horse who blows through a lead departure? Instead of referring to manuals and books.
    why don't you tell us how excessively giving a cue while withholding the response to that cue would make the horse more likely to respond sooner or better or with less pressure in future? Instead of referring to personal experience or specific examples.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DimSum    
    Shakes head. You really should learn what a logical disconnect is as you have a chronic case of it A person who posts up advice without the experience to back it up is merely parroting what they have been told, like a child mimicking their elders (or in this case what the uber trainer Gawd just posted on his blog). They lack the practical experience to recognize when that "one answer fits all" is not applicable in this situation-or is even dangerous to attempt.
    does the fact that they copied it from someone else, having never experienced it for themselves, in and of itself make the advice wrong?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DimSum
    Your whole argument reminds me of the "Don't worry, I stayed at a Holiday Inn" commercial where the guy is standing there about to perform surgery. Well, a person with no experience who posts up other people''s advice without the practical experience to back it up is cut from the same cloth. Left up to me I'll take the guy who went to medical school to do my surgery, kthxbai
    i have "practical experience" (irrelevant) of most of the alternative methods posted in this thread, and most of them can be explained using a scientific method (relevant), and do not seemingly rely on circular reasoning (relevant).
    And speaking of logical disconnection - medical school doesn't specifically imply much, if any, "practical experience". It does imply a lot of study or "book learning" though. And coincidentally "The M.D. Degree is typically earned in four years"

    Cowchick: that's fair enough. And i'm not saying what the boss horse did didn't work, and nor am I particularly saying that cherie's method doesn't work. But why did what the boss horse did work?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bagheera
    All I can do is ask that, in the future, please do not discount a horse's abilities because they tell you no once. Give them a chance to show you how great they can be, even if they make one mistake. When you stop believing in them, they stop trying for you.
    i absolutely do not discount a horses abilities ever. I will retract my opinion on their "finished status" yes, but all that means is that I see them as a "not finished horse in need of more training", and not a "finished horse giving the finger".
    Also whenever I cue a horse I am always trying to give them a chance to show me how great they can be. Which is why I personally wouldn't be inclined to withhold a relatively appropriate (relative to the fact that the rider multiplied the pressure by an excessive amount) response.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bagheera
    This teaches the horse to go forward at the touch of your calf
    that's great. But why?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bagheera
    I know certain people who have been working with horses for only 6 years who know a lot more about horses than some people who have been working with horses for 20 years. The same is true in reverse
    which is why I take "it's been my personal experience that it works" as an example and not a reason. A correlation, not a cause.

    Shadow: congratulations on good results. Please don't think that me asking why (and pointing out fallacies in answers to the question why) is a specific attempt to undermine the method or your efforts. If it works for you that's great - do what you need to do. I am only here to find out why.
         
        09-03-2013, 08:20 AM
      #207
    Weanling
    Dude. They've told you why. At this point, you maybe have to consider that it's not their lack of explanation, but perhaps it's your lack of comprehension. Or maybe you think semantics is the best game EVER. Please read previous sentences in the most polite way possible.
    Posted via Mobile Device
         
        09-03-2013, 01:19 PM
      #208
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by christopher    

    Cowchick: that's fair enough. And i'm not saying what the boss horse did didn't work, and nor am I particularly saying that cherie's method doesn't work. But why did what the boss horse did work?
    Simple, the horse doesn't think that not being allowed to move as negating the punishment.
    You think that it negates the spanking, not the horse. If the horse thought that way it wouldn't work right?




    Quote:
    Originally Posted by COWCHICK77    
    Fair enough answer.
    But I do disagree with the "spanking is for people who don't have the time." You seem to think if I spank my horse constantly or want to put people who do spank their horses in the same category as horse beaters who bloody mouths and hides.
    I didn't proof read before posting so I wanted to correct this statement.
    It was supposed to read:
    Fair enough answer.
    But I do disagree with the "spanking is for people who don't have the time." You seem to think if I spank my horse I constantly do so(I very rarely need to). You want to put people who do spank their horses in the same category as horse beaters who bloody mouths and hides.
    Muppetgirl likes this.
         
        09-03-2013, 02:26 PM
      #209
    Weanling
    Well, I've got to say its been fun. I am officially pulling out of this thread. I feel I have explained myself in a clear and detailed manner. Christopher, I am sorry you did not understand my two explainations of Cherie's training technique. I am not in the habit of continually repeating myself and should I continue to try to explain this, I will be doing just that.

    Shadow, I am so glad that you are having good results with your horse. Keep us updated on the progress. :)

    Lastly, remember to keep it friendly guys. :)
         
        09-03-2013, 08:39 PM
      #210
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by katbalu    
    They've told you why.
    they've told me that it works. Told me why one might want to use the method, told me what it serves to correct, told me a lot of things here but none of it is or adds up to how/why it works.
    Perhaps i've missed it? If so could someone give a quote of where it's explained?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by cowchick77
    Simple, the horse doesn't think that not being allowed to move as negating the punishment. You think that it negates the spanking, not the horse.
    but when you punish "lack of X response" only to also reinforce "lack of X response" you're not teaching the horse to give X response. That is, according to operant conditioning which is what the enormous majority of training methods posted by respected members on this forum are explained (perhaps unknowingly) by.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by cowchick77
    If the horse thought that way it wouldn't work right?
    apparently. Which is why i'm not saying it doesn't work.
         

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