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    08-24-2013, 09:29 PM
But the big point, is she is saying that you get really big, to "10", really quick, and DO NOT ALLOW HIM TO MOVE FORWARD IN RESPONSE. That is crutial and is the point that I find unusual.
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    08-24-2013, 09:51 PM
Originally Posted by tinyliny    
But the big point, is she is saying that you get really big, to "10", really quick, and DO NOT ALLOW HIM TO MOVE FORWARD IN RESPONSE. That is crutial and is the point that I find unusual.

I see what you are saying, on a horse that knows better, he should be stepping off into the lope not quick trotting into it. And allowing him to do so only teaches that he can be lazy rather than getting the lope off correct.
He needs to step up under himself get up into the bridle and step off correctly, the right response is the lope not a lazy strung out trot for three strides then strike off.
You can ask a lot of a horse and he will keep trying if reward him equally.
    08-24-2013, 10:14 PM
Originally Posted by COWCHICK77    
I don't think what Cherie described kills the try, and to emphasize, it's about getting try out of a more broke horse that has realized that you aren't going to ask a whole lot out of him and has become stagnant. It doesn't mean that you have hammer on them hard constantly to the point of fying his brain.
If done right it should liven up the try and if rewarded right it should keep the horse trying.
Not Cherie, the OP killed the try, now all you can do is get really firm like Cherie said. My point was after you firm up and get the try back you better reward the smallest change and slightest try, and not do the same thing you did that got into the mess you're trying to fix now.
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MN Tigerstripes and Cherie like this.
    08-24-2013, 10:20 PM
Originally Posted by Mike Zimmerman    
Not Cherie, the OP killed the try, now all you can do is get really firm like Cherie said. My point was after you firm up and get the try back you better reward the smallest change and slightest try, and not do the same thing you did that got into the mess you're trying to fix now.
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Oh okay, I guess I misread your post. Apologies :)
    08-24-2013, 11:55 PM
Super Moderator
I wonder why "most serious trainers' have to do this?
The serious trainer is trying to keep a horse tuned up for an amateur or youth who does not not get the respect or response that is needed to keep winning (or at least riding at a higher level). So, the horses usually goes downhill -- some very fast and some gradually. Obviously the owner/rider is not riding at that high a level but they want to win or at least make a good showing. Most are not going to do it on their own. That is why they need a trainer and/or a coach to start with. They want to ride above the level they are capable of training a horse for. They want to buy a winning 'finished' and then they want him to stay that good and not go south.

Ray Hunt would say don't ruin that horse's desire to help you, you take away his interest in doing what you want him to do by drilling him, training on him.
Actually just the opposite is true. You 'hammer' the mediocrity out of him and he gladly responds to the light aids you use to replace the hated nagging. If you do it right, and follow up with consistent use of light aids, only reminding him occasionally that you won't accept less, he will stay happy and responsive. The only reward a horse needs is a lack of punishment. The worst punishment you can do to him is pecking and nagging at him.

If you want a sour, sullen unwilling horse, just demand very little and constantly nag and peck at him. You will kill ALL try and get nothing better than what you have been accepting.

When you get after a horse that really knows better and get after him hard and immediately set him back up to ask again, with a very light touch, you have told him in a way he understands that you want the best that he can give. A 'good' horse that is not being asked to do something that is beyond his capabilities will cheer right up and try to give you the right response. You will see a better attitude, a light response and a MUCH happier horse. Nothing destroys an attitude worse than constant nagging and pecking.

This is a very advanced training concept. It is why I have not explained it earlier because most people who have not trained or at least ridden high level performance horses do not understand how it works and probably get in trouble trying it because it is way over the average rider's capability.

When I work with riders aspiring to get to big shows or ride competitively at a high level I try to stress that riding at a high level and training at a high level is about 60% mental ability and mind-set and about 40% riding ability. You ride and train at a high level with your head. Your hands and legs just follow through with your mental mind-set.
    08-25-2013, 07:26 PM
Don't sacrifice the method for the goal. It's not about nagging at them, it's about letting them know they did the right thing, and encouraging them. It's not about accepting mediocrity, you can be very particular, but never be critical. If a horse gets mediocre and you have to hammer on him, that's your fault and he shouldn't have to be punished for your failings.*
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    08-26-2013, 12:23 PM
Up until I posted this thread I dreaded going out and riding her. It was almost miserable. I rode yesterday and this morning doing exactly like Cherie had said. It was the first two rides I've enjoyed on her in a very long time. Instead of nagging all day long like I was doing before, when she ignored my asking, I did like Cherie had said immediately and tried again. She responded way better, not perfect but hopefully that will come. Her roll backs were quicker, her stops very crisp. Backing was smoother than it has been for a very long time. Now that I know what I was doing wrong and won't let her "train" me. We have had the "release for the slightest try" beat into our heads so much and I do believe I have very good hands, Once I had her trained she knew I would give to the slightest of her tries and her tries just kept getting slighter and slighter and I didn't even realize she was training me and I was still releasing.
I actually think she was in a better mood after the rides also, I know I sure was. I won't be able to ride her for a week but I'll keep with it and update all in a few weeks. I'm going to go slow and only do a few maneuvers each ride so as not to be after her constantly.
After the last cpl days, I really believe this is going to work.
By the way, I have very bad aim so my "overhauls" are usually me whacking the heck out of myself and not her!!!! But she knows the action and it's enough to wake her up and start listening.

The only thing I didn't like is that she was trying to run through the bit while waking her up but don't think there is any way to avoid that.

    08-26-2013, 12:56 PM
Excellent posts Cherie!

My horse is a finished horse, light light light and very sensitive. I have on occasion asked for a lope departure and had the old 'meh, give me a minute, meh ok' attitude, then a hop into it......I promptly pulled that horse down, sat deep, gathered my reins, spanked his butt, then scored him in the walk and asked again with the slightest shift of my seat and leg moving to squeeze and had the 'yes, ma'am' response HE WAS TRAINED TO DO. A properly finished horse needs to be met at a level of expectancy that they were trained for.
    08-26-2013, 01:15 PM
Super Moderator
Absolutely the way it is. When you let one give you less than what he is trained to do, he will quickly slide down to that level and then just keep going down. Don't ever expectt anything better from any horse than the worst response you accept.
franknbeans and Muppetgirl like this.
    08-26-2013, 01:27 PM
Yeah well I've let him spin not to hot, he gets sticky in the spin now (my fault - I've thrown him off balance by stepping too deep into my inside stirrup) so now I'm riding lots of tough circles right now and riding hard out of a lot of spins, he comes into the spin rounded, soft and one spin in he flattens out and gets sticky and sometimes coke-bottles on me, I've unbalanced him.......ugh! Exactly a good example of a horse meeting you at your level. I'm thankful he's not a sassy horse, because if he wasn't so forgiving I think I'd have created a monster by now!

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