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post #31 of 214 Old 08-26-2013, 12:41 PM
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Shadow -- I think you are well on your way. Like I try to stress, an obedient horse that is a happy horse. I would expect a complete turnaround in her attitude since you quit letting her talk you into nagging and pecking. And yes, riding this way is a lot more fun -- for both of you.

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post #32 of 214 Old 08-26-2013, 06:41 PM
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Say we want the horse to go into a jog with just a light squeeze of both legs. This is accomplished in this way: The rider applies a tiny squeeze. Of course the horse ignores it. Then, the trainer/rider applies about 10 times more pressure than he/she has to but does NOT LET THE HORSE GO FORWARD. The rider can spur the hard 4 or 5 times or 'over and under the horse several times -- hard, without letting the horse go forward at all. Then, gather the horse back up (he is probably a little wound about this time) and ASK AGAIN WITH THE VERY LIGHTEST SQUEEZE.
using this same reasoning for a different problem: a horse that wont stop as abruptly as it should, would you pull 10 times harder than necessary while spurring it forward hard enough to negate that pull?
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post #33 of 214 Old 08-26-2013, 07:44 PM
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A horse not stopping as well as it should is a lot different than a horse tuning out leg aids and 'teaching' a rider to nag and peck and threaten them with a crop or reins.

First are you talking about a reining type sliding stop where the horse rounds his back, throws his butt up underneath himself and 'walks' along with his front feet?

Or are you talking about a low level saddle horse 'pull on the reins' stop?

'Good' stops are not accomplished by pulling on the reins. So yanking on them harder would not be the answer, would it.

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Last edited by Cherie; 08-26-2013 at 07:47 PM.
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post #34 of 214 Old 08-26-2013, 07:46 PM
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using this same reasoning for a different problem: a horse that wont stop as abruptly as it should, would you pull 10 times harder than necessary while spurring it forward hard enough to negate that pull?
You don't pull on the face. Everyone has seen the pictures of horses of horses with their heads up bracing in the stop, that is what causes that.

If my fully trained horse(I think some are getting hung up on the difference between training a horse and a fully trained one) is being lazy and didn't give an effort in the stop, I will get after him with my feet, not the face. I will soften the face if he is rude there but not to correct the laziness.

I DON'T LEAD 'EM AND FEED 'EM, I RIDE 'EM AND SLIDE 'EM.
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post #35 of 214 Old 08-26-2013, 10:02 PM
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ok forget I said pull, it was said as an easily identifiable example, and I fully agree that you shouldn't just pull to stop.

But regardless of what your cue to stop is, if a horse is "tuning out to it", why would you abruptly increase that cue, only to then go to any lengths to negate the horses response? And if you wouldn't, why would you do it for a horse that was tuning out to any other cue?

Not saying that in OPs case you shouldn't abruptly increase the cue to get a response, I fully agree with really getting after this horse, but why would you then stop the horse from responding? As it is i'd be more inclined to let the horse jump forward.
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post #36 of 214 Old 08-26-2013, 10:21 PM
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ok forget I said pull, it was said as an easily identifiable example, and I fully agree that you shouldn't just pull to stop.

But regardless of what your cue to stop is, if a horse is "tuning out to it", why would you abruptly increase that cue, only to then go to any lengths to negate the horses response? And if you wouldn't, why would you do it for a horse that was tuning out to any other cue?

Not saying that in OPs case you shouldn't abruptly increase the cue to get a response, I fully agree with really getting after this horse, but why would you then stop the horse from responding? As it is i'd be more inclined to let the horse jump forward.
Christopher, it's a psychological trick, a lot of GOOD reining trainers can get a horse working on the head of a pin just by tricking him into thinking its easier to do a task than it is to refuse. See, if my horse doesn't lope off as soon as I ask, I pull his butt into the ground, spank his butt all the while containing him then I walk a few steps scoring him (rounded, soft on the bit) and ask again LIGHTLY.....he WILL decide that 'hey last time I didn't lope off sucked, this time I WANT to lope off straight away. It's the difference between intimidating a horse with harder and harder pressure and tricking his mind into WANTING to do something.

ETA: my horse is finished and KNOWS his job - therefore will be ridden with more expectancy than a green horse.
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Last edited by Muppetgirl; 08-26-2013 at 10:23 PM.
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post #37 of 214 Old 08-26-2013, 10:26 PM
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The stopping thing is an entirely different problem. It must be addressed much differently -- after sore hocks or stifles, sore back or shoulders, and other possible problems have been explored.

On the getting after a horse for not listening to leg aids --- the reason you hold the horse back or abruptly bring him back to the place where you are again asking for the response is so that you can immediately ask with a light aid and 9 times out of ten, he will respond correctly. The 'over-haul' is to get his attention and make him WANT to listen for the light aid -- which he will do. He will respond with the best transition that he has been trained to do where nagging just gets increasingly poor transitions.

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post #38 of 214 Old 08-26-2013, 10:26 PM
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I'm wondering if spanking with split reins across shoulder to shoulder is wrong as compared to swinging back to spank the butt?
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post #39 of 214 Old 08-26-2013, 10:32 PM
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Hmmm I always spank the butt as I fear I may smack the his head by accident , but I have used the split rein to enforce moving the shoulders as my horse had very tall riders who would bump his shoulders in the back up, where my stumps just don't reach that far, I only had to do it twice to enforce my different leg position.
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post #40 of 214 Old 08-26-2013, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Muppetgirl View Post
See, if my horse doesn't lope off as soon as I ask, I pull his butt into the ground, spank his butt all the while containing him then I walk a few steps scoring him (rounded, soft on the bit) and ask again LIGHTLY.....he WILL decide that 'hey last time I didn't lope off sucked, this time I WANT to lope off straight away.
your horse (according to behavioural science) is more likely to decide "hey last time I was asked to lope off I ended up being stopped and spanked, while my natural response to spanking, which would've probably been to lope off, was withheld. Loping off must the wrong response to the original cue"

Also if your horse was finished and knew his job he would do his job without needing to be spanked into it. Nothing against spanking, and nothing against your horse, that's just how it is. Horses do what they know to do to relieve pressure. And if they are asked to lope, yet get that relief of pressure after having not loped (not loping includes having their "butt pulled into the ground"), they're simply going to be less likely to lope again in future.

Cherie, here is a parallel that I suspect you'll understand: a horse that, when asked to canter from a trot, will keep trotting faster. What would you do in that case? Probably the same as what i've seen you advise to countless others, which is to "over/under" their butt into gear and really get them going into a fast canter or even gallop, instead of just "begging" them to canter. You probably wouldn't "not let them go forward at all" in that case, so why do you advise it in this case? Especially seeing as though both OPs problem and a horse that will trot faster instead of cantering are essentially different symptoms of the same problem - not enough forward impulsion.

So what I don't get is why holding them back while you "spur the hard 4 or 5 times or 'over and under the horse several times -- hard" will work any better than spurring or over & undering them, but letting them find that promptly going forward will relieve them of that, thus solving the problem.

Also I just read this while I was typing:
Quote:
On the getting after a horse for not listening to leg aids --- the reason you hold the horse back or abruptly bring him back to the place where you are again asking for the response is so that you can immediately ask with a light aid and 9 times out of ten, he will respond correctly. The 'over-haul' is to get his attention and make him WANT to listen for the light aid -- which he will do. He will respond with the best transition that he has been trained to do where nagging just gets increasingly poor transitions.
I understand why you might take the horse back to where the original problem happened & get a better transition there, and I understand why the "over-haul" works, but to somewhat negate the effectiveness of the 'over-haul' for the sake of keeping the horse in the same spot it originally gave a dull transition seems counter-productive.
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