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        08-26-2013, 11:35 PM
      #41
    Banned
    Quoted from Christopher:

    Your horse (according to behavioural science) is more likely to decide "hey last time I was asked to lope off I ended up being stopped and spanked, while my natural response to spanking, which would've probably been to lope off, was withheld. Loping off must the wrong response to the original cue"

    Also if your horse was finished and knew his job he would do his job without needing to be spanked into it. Nothing against spanking, and nothing against your horse, that's just how it is. Horses do what they know to do to relieve pressure. And if they are asked to lope, yet get that relief of pressure after having not loped (not loping includes having their "butt pulled into the ground"), they're simply going to be less likely to lope again in future.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    You are not understanding what I am saying, I DON'T WANT HIM TO LOPE OFF AT A SPANK, when I pull him down for not loping off I am saying 'NO, that was the wrong response to my LIGHT leg cue, now lets try again'. He knows IMMEDIATELY that he responded the wrong way to my cue. If he doesn't lope off nicely he doesn't get the relief off pressure, he gets stopped and reminded that moving off my leg is easier than having his butt pulled into the ground.

    A finished horse is not forever finished, they do require reminders. My horse does know his job, but if you think that once a horse is 'finished' that it stays that way then I'm Afraid you might be disappointed when you realize that horses are not robots and donor stay the same from day to day.
         
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        08-27-2013, 12:00 AM
      #42
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Muppetgirl    
    If he doesn't lope off nicely he doesn't get the relief off pressure, he gets stopped
    going from asking to lope, to asking to stop, you have to give him relief somewhere along the line because they are opposite movements, with different cues for each.

    Because the "stop cue" and the "lope cue" are different, and you can't reasonably be asking a horse to lope while you're asking it to stop, at some point you have to relieve the horse of the "lope cue" without it having actually loped.

    Someone's quote: "the worst behaviour you accept is the best behaviour you can expect" comes to mind. You're expecting the horse to lope, yet accepting A: not loping and B: stopping. Neither of which are loping.
         
        08-27-2013, 12:19 AM
      #43
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by christopher    
    going from asking to lope, to asking to stop, you have to give him relief somewhere along the line because they are opposite movements, with different cues for each.

    Because the "stop cue" and the "lope cue" are different, and you can't reasonably be asking a horse to lope while you're asking it to stop, at some point you have to relieve the horse of the "lope cue" without it having actually loped.

    Someone's quote: "the worst behaviour you accept is the best behaviour you can expect" comes to mind. You're expecting the horse to lope, yet accepting A: not loping and B: stopping. Neither of which are loping.
    I must ask, have you ridden a horse that is so finished that you just have to 'think' about doing something and it will do it? Have you ridden a horse where your cues are imperceptible to someone looking on?

    Here's how it goes with me, I score my horse, so he's rounded and soft in the face, I slide my outside leg back and my seat shifts slightly, if he ho hums or hops not the lope with his head popping up (a matter of two strides) then I shut him down and ask him again, if I let him dawdle along or hop into the lope then I am allowing that. So in essence I am expecting the horse to lope off 'correctly' not just lope, I like to allow my horse to make mistakes because that's how they learn, if I babysit him all the time he learns nothing.

    So yes, the worse behavior I accept is the worst behavior I can expect. Therefore by allowing a poor departure I can expect poor departures.

    Yes, stop cue and lope cue are very different, however he gets no relief if he doesn't not depart properly, as soon as he lopes of correctly everything gets easy for him. He has a great work ethic and he was trained by a Canadian Reining team member, who I worked for and who I still consult with and take lessons with their co-trainer. So I don't think they've taught me wrong in wanting a nice easy lope departure.
         
        08-27-2013, 12:46 AM
      #44
    Trained
    Lots of good posts on here, and partly subbing so I can read again later, too much to take in on one sitting.

    All I want to add, having had the pleasure of riding a trained reiner a couple of times this year, I get the difference between a fully trained horse, and, err my horses. I reward effort, and trying in my projects and greenies, but I would not on the reiner, she knows her job, and I expect her to do it, if not we stop and start again.
         
        08-27-2013, 12:58 AM
      #45
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Muppetgirl    
    I must ask, have you ridden a horse that is so finished that you just have to 'think' about doing something and it will do it? Have you ridden a horse where your cues are imperceptible to someone looking on?
    yes

    Quote:
    Here's how it goes with me, I score my horse, so he's rounded and soft in the face, I slide my outside leg back and my seat shifts slightly
    fair enough

    Quote:
    if he ho hums or hops not the lope with his head popping up (a matter of two strides) then I shut him down and ask him again
    ok, because that will eventually form an infinite loop of you unsuccessfully asking, then re-asking, then re-asking etc (interestingly, exactly like a horse that will trot faster instead of cantering, when a rider either stops asking for the canter, or keeps asking at the same rate, and/or slows them back to the trot they were initially at, then "re-asks"), how many times would you be willing to repeat that process before changing method? And which method would you change to? And why weren't you using that method from day 1?

    Quote:
    if I let him dawdle along or hop into the lope then I am allowing that. So in essence I am expecting the horse to lope off 'correctly' not just lope, I like to allow my horse to make mistakes because that's how they learn, if I babysit him all the time he learns nothing. So yes, the worse behavior I accept is the worst behavior I can expect. Therefore by allowing a poor departure I can expect poor departure.
    i'm not suggesting you let him dawdle along or do it wrong so that's irrelevant. But there does come a time when (with the method you've detailed above) the horse simply won't lope at all because your lope cue no longer means lope and comes to mean "i'm about to pull your butt into the ground"

    Quote:
    Yes, stop cue and lope cue are very different, however he gets no relief if he doesn't not depart properly, as soon as he lopes of correctly everything gets easy for him
    as it should be

    Quote:
    He has a great work ethic and he was trained by a Canadian Reining team member, who I worked for and who I still consult with and take lessons with their co-trainer. So I don't think they've taught me wrong in wanting a nice easy lope departure.
    this has less to do with your horse and his prior training, and more to do with the effectiveness of your method for training a horse to transition into a canter without being sluggish.
         
        08-27-2013, 01:15 AM
      #46
    Banned
    No, no, no ,no.....I guess this is why the thread is called 'frustrated'. If I use a spank for a lope departure on a FINISHED horse, then all is lost, all that will do is make him jump into a lope and panic and rush into it, if I ask a FINISHED horse to depart on the lope and he ho hums then hops into it, then I have to stop him right then and correct and let him try again by repositioning him for success. If I pull him down and spank his butt, I am saying 'no, wake up, let's try again'. If I just let him lope off willy-nilly then I have essentially taught him the wrong thing. He doesn't correlate getting his butt stopped with loping, he correlates it with being ho hum and not departing correctly......when he does depart correctly then his release is the easy loose lope.....

    I don't think you see the correlation of how loping is broken down into parts for a horse to learn. It's not just a gait or speed. It has parts. The departure comes before the body of the lope, and then there is speeding up and slowing down and then stopping. That's how I think, I don't see the lope as a whole. A departure is just that, a departure.

    As Cherie explained earlier is what I do and she has been on more horses than either you or I have taken breaths. Sorry I really think you just don't understand. May I ask, have you ridden a finished Reiner?......and I mean the finished kind......


    I give up.
         
        08-27-2013, 01:36 AM
      #47
    Banned
    I see you say you're a reining rider/trainer in another thread Then you should understand the importance of a good lead departure and how the lope is parts not just a whole. Anyway, each to their own. I'm a reining rider and I will never reach the conclusion of being a trainer, too much to learn and not enough breaths left in me to do it. I'd rather be a rider who thinks.
         
        08-27-2013, 01:52 AM
      #48
    Weanling
    Lots of awesome info here! I'm subbing as well. Also, I will say that I currently ride a horse who is solid at third level dressage. I am a novice dressage rider and he definetly knows it. I used to nag him into the canter, but my trainer taught me to correct the problem using Cherie's method. If I lightly ask for the canter and don't get it, we stop, I ask again with a big old wallop that he won't forget, then I allow him to go forward. I only had to "get after him once" and haven't had a problem since. I now ride him with exact cues, no nagging, and he knows he better go forward immediately when I ask him to. The idea is that ou make a single, big impression that the horse won't forget. Plus, he is much happier not being nagged IMO.
    franknbeans and Cherie like this.
         
        08-27-2013, 02:25 AM
      #49
    Showing
    Muppet, I agree with you. Training a younger horse that may not know exactly what you are asking for, that would be the wrong way to go about correcting an improper departure, but on a broke horse who occasionally gets "blah" about stuff, it's best and quickest to correct immediately.

    It doesn't matter if they lope really nice or if their lope is a nightmare, the departure needs to be corrected as a departure, not as a lope. If you sort of ignore the departure because the horse lopes nice, then you can never expect the horse to have a nice departure. You let a broke horse bumble his way around when he knows exactly what you're asking for but is just being lazy and refusing to do it, then you're spoiling him and undoing his training.

    Christopher, I wonder if maybe you've just never implemented the method they are talking about. It's a method mostly used for finished horses who sometimes get "ho-hum" to the aids. Whether they are being ridden by a lower level rider or they just aren't feeling it that day, it happens sometimes. I don't know about anyone else, but whenever I'm on a finished horse and they bumble their way into a partial lope departure, they never get passed the first stride or 2 of a trot. They aren't actually in a lope when I shut them down. SO, by your reasoning, they aren't learning that
    Quote:
    "hey last time I was asked to lope off I ended up being stopped and spanked, while my natural response to spanking, which would've probably been to lope off, was withheld. Loping off must the wrong response to the original cue
    They are learning that trotting off was the wrong response to the original cue and that it's completely unacceptable.

    On a finished horse that does this, to slam him down, get after him a bit, walk him out, and then ask again, you'll get the correct response the second time almost without question...providing that you are asking correctly.


    However, on even young horses, a modified version of this method works well. My young horse who is still <30 rides sometimes gets sticky with the left lead on a straightaway. Whenever I cue for the left lead and he gets sticky, I simply bring him down to a stop (I don't slam him because he's still young and isn't perfectly balanced), I might sidepass to remind him to move those hindquarters off that right leg, then I ask again. At first, it took maybe 4-5 times of bringing him back down before he picked it up. Now, on the rare occasion that he does get sticky, one little "refocus" and he'll get it right.
         
        08-27-2013, 04:07 AM
      #50
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Muppetgirl    
    If I use a spank for a lope departure on a FINISHED horse, then all is lost, all that will do is make him jump into a lope and panic and rush into it, if I ask a FINISHED horse to depart on the lope and he ho hums then hops into it, then I have to stop him right then and correct and let him try again by repositioning him for success. If I pull him down and spank his butt, I am saying 'no, wake up, let's try again'. If I just let him lope off willy-nilly then I have essentially taught him the wrong thing. He doesn't correlate getting his butt stopped with loping, he correlates it with being ho hum and not departing correctly......when he does depart correctly then his release is the easy loose lope.....

    I don't think you see the correlation of how loping is broken down into parts for a horse to learn. It's not just a gait or speed. It has parts. The departure comes before the body of the lope, and then there is speeding up and slowing down and then stopping. That's how I think, I don't see the lope as a whole. A departure is just that, a departure.

    As Cherie explained earlier is what I do and she has been on more horses than either you or I have taken breaths. Sorry I really think you just don't understand. May I ask, have you ridden a finished Reiner?......and I mean the finished kind......


    I give up.
    i think we are confusing 2 different topics. You are talking about the quality of lope departures from a reining perspective, on which I actually agree with what you're saying.

    I was questioning why holding them back while spurring or over/undering would increase their sensitivity/response time moreso than spurring or over/undering without holding them back - purely relating to getting the horse to move more forward. Regardless of the quality from a reining perspective.
         

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