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        08-27-2013, 09:49 AM
      #51
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by christopher    
    i think we are confusing 2 different topics. You are talking about the quality of lope departures from a reining perspective, on which I actually agree with what you're saying.

    I was questioning why holding them back while spurring or over/undering would increase their sensitivity/response time moreso than spurring or over/undering without holding them back - purely relating to getting the horse to move more forward. Regardless of the quality from a reining perspective.
    I use spurs to lift my horse and for lateral movement, I don't use spurs for speed. If I roll both my spurs on my horse while loping I essentially slow him down because I lift his rib cage and shorten his stride. I bump with my LEG, shift my seat and offer him the reins to speed up. But spurs come after a shift in seat. Always seat, legs, hands, spurs. Some very very good horses will change direction just with the turn of your head.

    If I am entering a run down AT A LOPE and my horse doesn't speed up when I cue him, THEN I will over and under and increase my speed to the end of the arena, pick up and slow the lope around the short end and reenter the run down down the long side again or diagonally across the arena, WHEN the horse is picking up speed fluidly and in a CONTROLLED way and is travelling straight, round and soft (solely from my cluck and seat cues) then I ask for a stop (slide) I ALLOW THE HORSE TO STOP, therefore creating a desire in him to travel correctly and pick up speed into the run down without creating anticipation. He doesn't stop until he is travelling correctly. Again nothing to do with a lope departure.

    The desire to run down correctly also has nothing to do with the horse wanting to slide either. The quality of your run down however does predict how correctly your horse is going to slide though, again just ONE part of the lope, speed control - and has nothing to do with the lope cue. Once I ask my horse to lope everything is released, I don't need to keep a leg on him, I only put a leg on him to change speed. He will keep loping until I say do something different.
         
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        08-27-2013, 10:58 AM
      #52
    Green Broke
    I don't have reiners but I understand & use Muppergirls method with the exception using an "ack" or some other verbal cue instead of a physical spank (probably because I have Arabians ).
    I agree, it is about the departure.
    I bought a mare who was allowed to Roadster pony into a canter. She knew no other way. I taught her first on a lunge line & yes, I shut her right down & asked again quickly. It didn't take her long to figure that a canter cue meant now & it easily transferred to under saddle.
    It's not mean or confusing to them if your timing is right.
         
        08-27-2013, 11:32 AM
      #53
    Foal
    Great thread! Can someone explain to me what "over and under" is?
         
        08-27-2013, 11:37 AM
      #54
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lchad    
    Great thread! Can someone explain to me what "over and under" is?
    Using the long split reins to spank the horse, essentially a western crop. I will ride with one hand and then pick up both reins in the other hand and use them to spank the horses butt.
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        08-27-2013, 11:40 AM
      #55
    Showing
    Ichad, over and under can either be used to describe a piece of tack similar to a whip or it can be used as a verb to describe the action of taking a long piece of leather/cloth or a bridle rein and using it to spank the horse on alternating sides.

    You can see her using the over and under in the first few seconds of this video
    Golden Horse and Muppetgirl like this.
         
        08-27-2013, 11:42 AM
      #56
    Foal
    Got it! Thanks! Have done it but never knew it was called that! Thanks again!
         
        08-27-2013, 06:05 PM
      #57
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Muppetgirl    
    If I am entering a run down AT A LOPE and my horse doesn't speed up when I cue him, THEN I will over and under and increase my speed to the end of the arena
    ok but if WHILE you were already loping (forget about the departure) the horse wasnt speeding up as much as you'd like or being sluggish in your run down, you wouldn't you pull his butt into the ground and spank him, and you would over/under and let him respond to it, like you've said above?

    Everything else you've said is fair enough & I mostly agree with you, but the question of how would holding them back while getting after them to go forward work better than getting after them go to forward but allowing them to respond to it, as far as PURELY going forward or responding faster is concerned, remains unanswered.
         
        08-27-2013, 08:24 PM
      #58
    Green Broke
    Using your romel to get some speed is one thing but clutching one is another. You might need to do both in order to get a good run down for a correct stop.
    Muppetgirl likes this.
         
        08-27-2013, 08:46 PM
      #59
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by christopher    
    ok but if WHILE you were already loping (forget about the departure) the horse wasnt speeding up as much as you'd like or being sluggish in your run down, you wouldn't you pull his butt into the ground and spank him, and you would over/under and let him respond to it, like you've said above?

    Everything else you've said is fair enough & I mostly agree with you, but the question of how would holding them back while getting after them to go forward work better than getting after them go to forward but allowing them to respond to it, as far as PURELY going forward or responding faster is concerned, remains unanswered.
    It is not unanswered, I DONOT WANT TO TEACH MY HORSE TO DEPART INTO THE LOPE FROM A SPANK BECAUSE IT WILL MAKE HIM JUMP,HOP AND GET NERVOUS IN HIS DEPARTS HENCE WHY I SHUT HIM DOWN AND WAKE HIM UP, THEN REPOSITION HIM TO DO THE RIGHT THING. I AM NOT GETTING AFTER HIM TO GO FORWARD, I AM GETTING AFTER HIM TO DEPART PROPERLY.

    I over and under DURING the lope FOR SPEED, CONTROLLED SPEED.

    Really, you don't give horses enough credit to understand these things.

    Here is a good example if a show jumping horse (since reining has been the subject you might see it from another angle here) being spanked for refusing, notice the rider holds the horse, spanks, pauses then asks the horse to jump again at which point the horse does so quite willingly and energetically.

         
        08-27-2013, 09:11 PM
      #60
    Started
    I think this training issue is about YOUR energy. You have to learn when to increase your energy to get the horse to do something quicker, then relax so he knows he did it right, but not so much as to quit riding.....

    My little neighbor who rides at my house is having this problem. She is a calm energy person, so horses do not run away with her, but they do not want to go. It is impossible for me to teach, so I keep telling her about it, hoping she can figure it out.

    Sorry I cannot explain myself better....guess that is why I don't give lessons, huh??

    Nancy
         

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