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Going from western to english

This is a discussion on Going from western to english within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category

     
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        03-04-2008, 08:38 PM
      #21
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jazzyrider
    i know JDI didnt respond to this but im going to. JDI is right when she says that every horse can be ridden in a snaffle. Just because a horse goes badly for a while doesnt mean he can't be ridden in it. I always always always use snaffles and I've had some pretty out there horses. It depends on the horse as to how long it will take but every horse will do fine with a snaffle eventually. Some need more time to get the concept. But its not just the horse. The rider has to know what he/she is doing as well. Between a knowledgable rider and proper training techniques any horse will eventually soften and do well with a snaffle. Not everything happens overnight but with patience progress can be made.

    For the benefit of people who are just learning stuff here with us it would be good to state that something like not every horse being able to have a snaffle is what you have found in your experience but does not make it rule of thumb for every horse everywhere.
    Ok well I don't like feeling offended like I don't know what i'm doing my horse wont even corroperate with my trainer. I used him in a snaffle most of this year but it wasn't working he wasn't softening to it he's just not a soft mouthed horse. Why else do you think they have other bits? And don't tell me that the bit i'm using is cruel or that it can cause harm in the wrong hands obviously he is fine if he rides perfect in the bit i'm using right now and he responds just as well as before.

    When I rode him in a snaffle he wouldn't listen for anything. I have ridden him in a halter but its not all about trust or how soft because yes he can ride in a halter and a snaffle but what about when he wants to do what he wants to do? He bursts off and that little tickle in his mouth ain't going to do diddly squat. Maybe its different for a different horse with a soft mouth but its not for Junior. He don't work like that.
         
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        03-04-2008, 09:10 PM
      #22
    Showing
    Deleted.
         
        03-04-2008, 09:15 PM
      #23
    Green Broke
    I'm not getting back into this. I feel pretty bad because this bit issue kinda hi-jacked toosexy4myspotz thread. Especially since she doesn't even use a bit.

    I don't know what else to say if you don't use a bit. Maybe work on extended trot and leg yields, shoulder-in and sidepasses. Collection too, maybe. That's about all I can say......
         
        03-04-2008, 10:35 PM
      #24
    Trained
    Re: Going from western to english

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by toosexy4myspotz
    I have never actually rode english but I would love to. I ride Poco western and bareback all the time. When I was working with him the other day I was thinking about learing to ride him english. He's got a gorgeous trot and an oustanding canter. When you ride him western he has a good jog and lop and keeps a low headset but when you ride bareback or just with a pad he carries his head high and just gives an outstanding performace. I will never show him but I was just wondering what I should do to get him accustomed to englsih without breaking his western training.
    ok ideally if he is trained western then he should already know about head set, frame etc because even though western and english are different they carry the same base.

    I know you're issues with riding bareback. My mare is a perfect angel in a bridle and saddle. I would have a hard time getting her off the bit if I tried but as soon as I get on bareback apparently this means its time to not hold her head well and to run around with her nose in the air. I've spent a lot of time just walking her around until finally she softens and gives to the bit. After ages of steady collection in the walk in started trotting. Once again she would lift her head so I would make her walk again and wait until she had good head carriage and then trot again. She is starting to get the idea now and its starting to behave much better bareback.

    It is much harder not using a bit but it can be done as long as whatever you are riding in is putting the right amount of pressure in the right places. You may have already said this but what do you use to ride in? Hackamore? Halter and reins?
         
        03-05-2008, 06:03 PM
      #25
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JustDressageIt
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jazzyrider
    i know JDI didnt respond to this but im going to. JDI is right when she says that every horse can be ridden in a snaffle. Just because a horse goes badly for a while doesnt mean he can't be ridden in it. I always always always use snaffles and I've had some pretty out there horses. It depends on the horse as to how long it will take but every horse will do fine with a snaffle eventually. Some need more time to get the concept. But its not just the horse. The rider has to know what he/she is doing as well. Between a knowledgable rider and proper training techniques any horse will eventually soften and do well with a snaffle. Not everything happens overnight but with patience progress can be made.

    For the benefit of people who are just learning stuff here with us it would be good to state that something like not every horse being able to have a snaffle is what you have found in your experience but does not make it rule of thumb for every horse everywhere.

    Thank you, Jazzy. I've ridden the best and worst of them, and every one I felt could be worked in a snaffle... or rather, a French Link, but I'll use the term snaffle for simplicity sake.
    I believe that ALL horses can be ridden in a snaffle if you know how to train them properly to accept that - even the mose ornary, hard-mouthed horses - why do you think you have to ride in one for lower levels of dressage? The horses have to respond to the snaffle first. The snaffle is a part of the double bridle, and the rein that you should be riding on unless you need to tweak the curb just for an extra edge for a couple strides.
    Junior, we're not attacking you. We're stating our opinions, and I hate to bring it up, but we do have a few years on you...
    "When he wants to do what he wants to do" then he doesn't want to listen to you - which is a problem, but we've all gone through that. It's just a matter of realizing that you are the boss, and what you say goes, period, no ifs ands or buts.
    My old gelding had a mouth like rock, but I worked through it, and when I sold him I had him working in both a snaffle and double bridle.
    I'm very passionate about this, because I went through the "tougher bits=more control" phase as well... When I start to work with my mare, it will be in a snaffle or french link, even though the previous owner said she "needed" a curb... it's not happening.

    You don't have a few years on me because I haven't even been on here for a year yet. So you must have me mixed up with somebody else. And there is a point to were you state your opinion on using snaffle bits and an opinion in where you practically insult someone's training.

    I don't know why you think I have gotten into so many fights or whatever you wanna think this happens to be my first on here other than the little arguements that EVERYONE was involved in. So you definitely don't have any years on me so get it straight next time. Now you can add 1 to that 0 because that's the only one I have had....

    Sry toosexy4myspotz that I had to ruin your topic like that I really didn't mean to but I just had to defend myself i'm sry I am just like that. Well I think your horse should do good in changing from western to english he's probably smarter than my boy and if so he can probably catch on real quick. Just do the collection and stuff like they are saying. I wish I could help you more but i'm about to just leave this topic before I get in anymore trouble. Good luck.
         
        03-05-2008, 07:37 PM
      #26
    Showing
    Deleted.


    Anyways, toosexy4myspotz, since you're riding without a bit, you are slightly limited to what you can show in, id you're planning on showing - I know in hunter and dressage you have to use a bit, as far as I know, you can't even use a mechanical hackamore (please correct me if I'm off on this, I've always used a bit to show!). It's different in the jumper ring; you can use just about anything there and get away with it.
    If you're using a bitless bridle (not a romel) then I would just stick with that when you're riding english - unless you're showing. If you use a romel, I would suggest a mechanical hackamore.
    If you were using a truely western bit, then I would suggest starting with an english bit (because the contact differs between the disciplines, so the bits are designed differently.) Again, this point is moot because you're not using a bit!

    Do you keep contact with his mouth while you're riding western, or do you do the whole 9 yards of rein thing? Because that's going to be the biggest transition, is getting used to constant contact - this does not mean constant pulling, rather just having a feel of the bit (in your case, the horse's face) all the time, instead of having your reins looped.

    Another big adjustment is going to be the saddle - have you yourself ridden in one at all? Most horses adjust to it fine, but the gait you're going to get the most reaction in is the canter, as it does tend to sit a lot different in the canter than your western saddle. Again, some horses adjust fine, others not so much.

    I think I've talked myself blue here, and hopefully I've helped somewhat? Maybe? Please post more questions if you have them!!
         
        03-07-2008, 07:56 PM
      #27
    Weanling
    Sry but my last comment....age don't matter people younger than me could know more than me. Its all about experience and preference. So just because somebody doesn't agree with your training technique or the bit you like does not mean that they are wrong or are not "soft handed" or not "training their horse right" that just means they don't like that bit. So age has nothing to do with it so either way you were wrong in the case to say that you have a few years on me. Just because your older doesn't mean you know more about horses than me although that doesn't mean I know more about horses than you but neither of us have the right to claim we know more than the other person as if we were better than the other person.
         
        03-07-2008, 09:50 PM
      #28
    Green Broke
    Can we all agree that it's important to be careful with how we word things and be careful not to be so easily offended/defensive? Both of these are pretty hurtful to the whole purpose of the forum: being helpful and encouraging to others in the horse community. That is the point of this forum, right?

    That being said.... back to the original post!

    Do you have an idea of what 'realm' of english you want to get into? That might make it easier to offer some suggestions. Do you think you'll get into jumping? If so, lots of poles and cavelettis would be a good idea. In general though I'd start off by making sure your horse moves well off your leg (if he doesn't already) and make him as adjustable as possible: extending and collecting his gaits, making him move laterally, etc. My hunter pony was a roping horse before I got him and even in my jumping saddle he still knows how to neck rein, spin, etc so I wouldn't worry too much about it affecting his western training.
    JDI's is right, if you decide to show a hackamore is only allowed in the jumpers. So if that's a possibility it would be important to find a bit he could be comfortable in. Just out of curiosity, is it just snaffles he doesn't like or bits in general? Some horses with small mouths or low palates have a painful time in a snaffle. Because it bends in half the point pokes them in the roof of the mouth. They often go better in something with more joints like a Herm Sprenger or a french link. If he's flinging his head around I wonder if that's the case and a different bit might help. But if you're happy with the hackamore there's no point in changing!
         
        03-08-2008, 10:41 AM
      #29
    Yearling
    Okay, Maybe this will help. I usually just ride around the pastures and trail ride. I've rode him western for 4 years. Just because I only trail ride now doesnt mean I don't want him looking nice. I usually ride in a beetle hackamore. Sometimes I just rode in a halter and lead rope and jump on bare back. However, this is what I want to do. He LOVES to jump. Not big jumps but just over stuff 2' at the most. Any chance we get on a trail we go jump over things but I hate doing it in a western saddle. He's been over poles and small jumps before in the arena without a saddle on and he just eats it up. I also need to try and find an english saddle that will fit him/me as well. He gives in extremely well to the pressure from the beetle hackamore and I can put his headset where ever I want it just by the slightest bit of pressure.
         
        03-08-2008, 12:01 PM
      #30
    Showing
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by toosexy4myspotz
    Okay, Maybe this will help. I usually just ride around the pastures and trail ride. I've rode him western for 4 years. Just because I only trail ride now doesnt mean I don't want him looking nice. I usually ride in a beetle hackamore. Sometimes I just rode in a halter and lead rope and jump on bare back. However, this is what I want to do. He LOVES to jump. Not big jumps but just over stuff 2' at the most. Any chance we get on a trail we go jump over things but I hate doing it in a western saddle. He's been over poles and small jumps before in the arena without a saddle on and he just eats it up. I also need to try and find an english saddle that will fit him/me as well. He gives in extremely well to the pressure from the beetle hackamore and I can put his headset where ever I want it just by the slightest bit of pressure.
    Definitely spend the time to shop around and try a ton of different saddles, find the exact right one for you and your horse :)
    Since you're just pleasure riding, and have established effective communication between you and your horse with the hackamore, I would just leave that be... the big indication on whether you should try something else or not will be when you switch to an english saddle, especially when jumping, you want to make sure your hands are light, and not catching him in the face at all. Since he does respond so well and so quickly right now, he will definitely tell you if that is happening.
    Once again, the biggest transition will be the saddle - it has completely different pressure points than the western saddle. Some horses adjust just fine and some have a huge raction, it just depends on your horse. I found (when training youngsters and switching from western to english for the first time) they could be fine with the saddle for the walk and trot, but since the canter is asymmetrical, they didn't like where the saddle sat, so they had their big stink there. Jumping with an english saddle is a completely different experience altogether - one that both you and your horse will adjust to.
    Have you yourself ever ridden english?
    Do you have any questions you'd like to ask?
         

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