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Good bits for a mouthy 2yo?

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        10-24-2012, 07:12 PM
      #21
    Yearling
    Thank you Muppetgirl. The issue with scaring him is if you don't have a rope or something to chase him with, he won't believe you. LOL. I desensitized him to about everything. For petes sake yesterday after the lesson I was brushing out his tangled gnarled mess of a tail. And my out-law came flying past my house blaring their car horn, and he never even moved. Didn't even bat an eyelash. I was impressed, and quite mad at the person who did it. But I will give it a try next lesson!! When he was a baby and chewed on the stall walls, I put tobasco sauce on it, it didn't phase him at all. I was shocked.
         
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        10-24-2012, 09:21 PM
      #22
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Elizabeth Bowers    
    I usually have a rope on me and chase him away if he starts to crowd me.
    Instead of waiting for his behaviour to react to, where possible, I think it's best to set it up that the horse effectively does it to himself, rather than you coming after him.

    Eg the above sort of instance, I tend to use the tactic of 'swatting flies' with my arms, waving a rope, etc. I don't aim at the horse, don't even tend to look at him, but I sporadically do this for no apparent reason(more regularly for first lessons) and the horse learns to stay out of arms reach(or whatever you want your 'bubble'. If he gets in the way, *he* will bump into the pressure. You didn't do it 'to' him. I do think they respond to this differently.

    I also use the tactic of suddenly and energetically backing up, especially for horses who haven't learned not to crowd. I first started that after nearly stepping on a snake, walking in front of my horse but got to thinking about it as a training technique. It works well.

    If they aren't paying attention & don't get out of the way, you'll run into them, but you're not aiming for them(in that respect I think backing into them works well). They quickly learn to leave a 'buffer zone', watch your bodylanguage & get out of your way.
    Elizabeth Bowers likes this.
         
        10-24-2012, 09:28 PM
      #23
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Elizabeth Bowers    
    The issue with scaring him is if you don't have a rope or something to chase him with, he won't believe you.
    I'm a great believer in using as little pressure as possible. But you need to be prepared to use as much as necessary to be effective. I find there are generally other things going on which may mean it's not necessary or appropriate to increase the pressure, but I do think you need to be ready for it & initially at least, you might do best not to go to him without 'something he believes in', but I think you need to find a way of being effective without obvious tools - you don't want him to learn to only listen to you when you've got a big stick, just like you wouldn't want him to learn to only come to you if you had treats.
    Elana and Elizabeth Bowers like this.
         
        10-25-2012, 01:27 AM
      #24
    Foal
    I know this will be controversial, but...

    My first thought is that a 2 year old is too young to be ridden, so I hope you are just doing ground driving or something like that. Why? Please allow me to Quote trainer Sally White and Equine physiology expert, Dr. Deb Bennett:

    The Great Age Debate

    by author and trainer, Sally White



    Thoroughbred racehorses are asked to carry a jockey at high speed, for long distances, in one of the most strenuous equine sports there is, at the age of two. Yet Lipizzaner stallions in Vienna, who carry out leaps and pirouettes requiring the greatest of suppleness and concentration, are left in their fields until they reach the age of five. Which is right?
    The debate over what age to start riding a young horse is a fierce one in the horsey world, and it raises tempers faster than you can say “physically mature”. Which is what the whole debate hinges on - for opinions differ widely as to when a horse is sufficiently developed enough to take the weight of a human being.
    As your horse grows, his bones and joints get stronger through the fusion of his growth plates - flexible areas which, at birth, are separated by a layer of crushable cartilage and allow the horse’s bones to lengthen and grow. There’s a widely-held belief that these growth plates only exist in a horse’s knee: but in fact, there are growth plates almost everywhere that a horse has joints. They are all weak points, and unable to bear much weight, until they fuse – that is, the cartilage disappears and they join together in one strong unit.
    So the horse’s strength - his physical maturity - is determined by when this turning point is reached. This happens at differing rates in different areas of the body – and some growth plates in a horse’s body have still not fused by the time he is six.
    Here’s what’s happening to your horse’s skeletal structure at different times in its life, as outlined by the celebrated vet and conformation specialist, Dr Deb Bennett:
    At the age of 1 year:
    the horse’s pasterns have fused
    At 18 months:
    his cannon bones are mature
    At 30 months (2.5 yrs):
    he now has stronger - but not entirely mature - knees (the small bones have fused), and his fetlock joints are mature
    At 3 years:
    the weight-bearing area at the base of the knees is fused, as well as his hindleg between hock and stifle
    At 3-and-a-half:
    the highest part of his foreleg, the humerus, is fused, as are parts of his femur, the area of his hindleg between stifle and hip
    At 4 years:
    the shoulder is fused, and the hocks and pelvis are now mature
    At 5-and-a-half:
    the growth plates over the centrum, which allows the spine to flex, become fused
    The ages above vary slightly (by about 6 months) according to the breed and type of horse, and the growth plates between the 32 vertebrae continue to fuse until a horse is up to 8 years old.
    So it’s clear from this that a horse’s knees will not be ready to take weight until he is 3 years old. His hocks will continue to be weak until he is four, as will his hips; and his back is vulnerable until he is at least five and a half.
    This is perhaps the most powerful argument against the riding, especially in advanced training or competition, of horses aged two or younger. It is borne out by the number of racehorses who started young who suffer physical breakdown, sometimes at a tragically young age. Horses ridden at the age of two - quite apart from being emotionally immature and less able to deal with the mental stresses and strains of competition - suffer more from developmental diseases and structural problems. They are at risk from navicular, splints, ringbone, and tendon weakness. The practice of “firing” - passing a hot needle or laser through a horse’s damaged tendons to cauterise the nerves and stop pain, allowing further work - came about as an attempt to lengthen the working lives of horses put on the racetrack too young. Training intensively and riding an animal this young places him in serious danger of physical and mental damage - a factor which is becoming more widely recognised by vets and other equine professionals as time goes on.
    But even at the age of three - the age I first rode my horse, and a popular choice for anyone starting a riding horse - you can see from the figures above, the hocks, hips and back are still very immature. This is where the whole issue becomes more of a question of personal judgement, with a number of different factors to take into account.
    The first of these is the amount of work a horse is asked to do. When I started riding my youngster, at about three and a half, I began with short sessions, no more than 15-20 minutes. Even now, when she is 4 years and 2 months old, I don’t work her in the school for more than half an hour, and I don’t hack her out for more than a couple of hours. I also don’t ride her that often - no more than three times a week. I am, maybe, unusual in that - many people I know with young horses try to do a little riding with them each day. But I take the view that it’s better, if you do want to train every day, to vary things by introducing a little lungeing, loose-schooling or long-reining instead of riding. This develops different muscles as well as keeping life more interesting and working on all of her different skills.
    The second is the type of work you do. A young horse has to learn how to balance himself with a rider on his back: he cannot do it automatically, and he must develop the relevant muscles. Asking a three-year-old to work in an outline, canter in circles (even big ones), or extend and collect his paces is like asking a ten-year-old child to do weight training. Even if he understands what you are asking him, he will have to really strain himself to perform these relatively advanced movements. Once again, you are risking long-term damage to joints and back problems. There is also the risk of mental strain, which will show itself in temperamental behaviour and a “bad attitude”. The horse at age 3 is something like a teenager: if you ask too much of him, he’ll get sulky and stroppy, give you lip and eventually just refuse!
    And the third - a sensitive subject at the best of times! - is the weight of the rider he is to carry. Forget what you may have heard about measuring the “bone” a horse has to work out what weight he can carry. This all goes out of the window when talking about young horses, who may reach their full “bone” measurement long before they are physically able to carry the weight it suggests. Young horses, of whatever build, are much less at risk if a light rider can be found to train them under saddle.
    A basic timetable which you could use as a starting point for a training programme, adjusting it according to your own horse and your own circumstances, is:
    At two years old:
    Introduce the horse to new tack and different situations
    At three years old:
    “Back” him – that is, mount and dismount, lunge him with a rider at walk only and in straight lines – and then turn him away again
    At four years old:
    Begin riding with simple manoeuvres, walking and trotting only in the school, not asking for collection and keeping circles very large
    At five years old:
    Introduce more difficult manoeuvres, such as canter in the school and smaller circles, and begin collection and lateral moves. You can also start teaching him specific disciplines, such as introducing small jumps.
    At six years old:
    He can begin full work and competition as an adult horse.
    Many horse trainers would see this as a very conservative programme. It is, but that is only because it goes at exactly the same pace as the physical development of the horse. It has become customary in the horse world to move faster than that, but perhaps it is time to ask questions about the reasons for this perpetual hurry to have the horse grow up faster than he would do naturally.
    One example which speaks louder than any words is that of the extremely highly-regarded dressage rider, Reiner Klimke. This talented German rider consistently produces well-adjusted horses with outstanding balance and exceptional performance. Yet he says in his book, Basic Training of the Young Horse, “I believe that the experienced trainer of riding horses will not start work with his charge until the growth of the joints, bones and tendons is well advanced”. His training programme includes riding only at the end of the third year, and sometimes not until the horse is four. His excellent results do not seem to suffer from giving his horses a late start: indeed, he says, “I am convinced that had I started these horses earlier I would not have been so successful.”
    Perhaps we can learn from the gentle pace of this expert approach. As Klimke says, “One must have the patience to wait until the horse is physically and mentally ready for the work demanded of it.”
    loosie and EvilHorseOfDoom like this.
         
        10-25-2012, 02:16 AM
      #25
    Started
    ^^ Completely agree. That book by Reiner Klimke is invaluable - I've read and reread it so many times, I thoroughly recommend you purchase a copy
    Elizabeth Bowers likes this.
         
        10-25-2012, 09:54 AM
      #26
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by blkgryphon    
    My first thought is that a 2 year old is too young to be ridden, so I hope you are just doing ground driving or something like that. Why? Please allow me to Quote trainer Sally White and Equine physiology expert, Dr. Deb Bennett:

    Deb Bennett:
    At the age of 1 year:
    the horse’s pasterns have fused
    At 18 months:
    his cannon bones are mature
    At 30 months (2.5 yrs):
    he now has stronger - but not entirely mature - knees (the small bones have fused), and his fetlock joints are mature
    At 3 years:
    the weight-bearing area at the base of the knees is fused, as well as his hindleg between hock and stifle
    At 3-and-a-half:
    the highest part of his foreleg, the humerus, is fused, as are parts of his femur, the area of his hindleg between stifle and hip
    At 4 years:
    the shoulder is fused, and the hocks and pelvis are now mature
    At 5-and-a-half:
    the growth plates over the centrum, which allows the spine to flex, become fused
    The ages above vary slightly (by about 6 months) according to the breed and type of horse, and the growth plates between the 32 vertebrae continue to fuse until a horse is up to 8 years old.

    A basic timetable which you could use as a starting point for a training programme, adjusting it according to your own horse and your own circumstances, is:
    At two years old:
    Introduce the horse to new tack and different situations
    At three years old:
    “Back” him – that is, mount and dismount, lunge him with a rider at walk only and in straight lines – and then turn him away again
    At four years old:
    Begin riding with simple manoeuvres, walking and trotting only in the school, not asking for collection and keeping circles very large
    At five years old:
    Introduce more difficult manoeuvres, such as canter in the school and smaller circles, and begin collection and lateral moves. You can also start teaching him specific disciplines, such as introducing small jumps.
    At six years old:
    He can begin full work and competition as an adult horse.
    Many horse trainers would see this as a very conservative programme. It is, but that is only because it goes at exactly the same pace as the physical development of the horse. It has become customary in the horse world to move faster than that, but perhaps it is time to ask questions about the reasons for this perpetual hurry to have the horse grow up faster than he would do naturally.
    One example which speaks louder than any words is that of the extremely highly-regarded dressage rider, Reiner Klimke. This talented German rider consistently produces well-adjusted horses with outstanding balance and exceptional performance. Yet he says in his book, Basic Training of the Young Horse, “I believe that the experienced trainer of riding horses will not start work with his charge until the growth of the joints, bones and tendons is well advanced”. His training programme includes riding only at the end of the third year, and sometimes not until the horse is four. His excellent results do not seem to suffer from giving his horses a late start: indeed, he says, “I am convinced that had I started these horses earlier I would not have been so successful.”
    Perhaps we can learn from the gentle pace of this expert approach. As Klimke says, “One must have the patience to wait until the horse is physically and mentally ready for the work demanded of it.”
    No i'm not riding him, the most I might do is just sit on him, I will stop that now that I see it may cause more harm than good. My mom told me(she's raised and trained her own horses) to start riding him at 3, so I have been gradually introducing him tack and equipment. I don't even plan on riding him until he is 4 or 5. I just started really riding my mare, whom just turned 5 at the beginning of this month, and that's only once a week. I"m happy to let them take their time and grow and become healthy and fit enough to take a rider. I wouldn't be sending them out to be trained until they are mature enough mentally and physically. Sorry if you got he wrong view here, but I was thinking if he never lost his 'mouthy' behavior, what good bits there are I should try.
    For holy cow I have a friend who has a 3yo trotting the barrel pattern already and takes him out on late evening rides 3/4 days a week, and the trainer is there everyday. I couldn't believe it.
    I do appreciate the article you posted, that is some very useful and needed knowledge there. Thank you!
    loosie likes this.
         
        10-25-2012, 10:00 AM
      #27
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by loosie    
    but I think you need to find a way of being effective without obvious tools - you don't want him to learn to only listen to you when you've got a big stick, just like you wouldn't want him to learn to only come to you if you had treats.
    I have started randomly swinging my arms around, and kicking and stomping my feet. He has learned to stop and look and see what this crazy person is about to do and if he should make a run for it, or stand and watch LOL
    loosie likes this.
         
        10-25-2012, 10:15 AM
      #28
    Green Broke
    Have you thought of starting him in a side pull or a half breed? I like the side pull (double rope) to start a horse and then add the snaffle bit in the half breed.

    I also used to take a young horse and put the bridle with snaffle on (NO NOSEBAND or REINS) and turn them in the loose box for an hour or so and leave them to figure it out.

    As said before.. be sure the bit fits. Too wide or too narrow.. and too low or too high in the mouth can encourage chewing. For a young horse I have the bit just high enough in the mouth to make one wrinkle in the corner of the lip. Sometimes just a tiny bit lower.. depends on the horse.

    I LIKE an untrained horse to chew some.. and even get an over wet mouth.. in response to a bit. The horse that does not chew and has a dry mouth is much more of a problem.

    Yes.. stop the biting. You did say he was a gelding, right? Boyze tend to be much mouthier over all as youngsters.. and if they are stallions they often stay that way (but can be trained not to mouth people).
    Elizabeth Bowers likes this.
         
        10-25-2012, 10:26 AM
      #29
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Elana    
    Have you thought of starting him in a side pull or a half breed? I like the side pull (double rope) to start a horse and then add the snaffle bit in the half breed.

    I also used to take a young horse and put the bridle with snaffle on (NO NOSEBAND or REINS) and turn them in the loose box for an hour or so and leave them to figure it out.

    As said before.. be sure the bit fits. Too wide or too narrow.. and too low or too high in the mouth can encourage chewing. For a young horse I have the bit just high enough in the mouth to make one wrinkle in the corner of the lip. Sometimes just a tiny bit lower.. depends on the horse.

    I LIKE an untrained horse to chew some.. and even get an over wet mouth.. in response to a bit. The horse that does not chew and has a dry mouth is much more of a problem.

    Yes.. stop the biting. You did say he was a gelding, right? Boyze tend to be much mouthier over all as youngsters.. and if they are stallions they often stay that way (but can be trained not to mouth people).
    Yes he is a gelding. I didn't try because everything I have is still a little too big for his head yet. As for the bridle (no reins of course) He doesn't even have a wrinkle on each corner of his mouth, and that's fully adjusted. So it shouldn't be too tight, maybe too loose though. I will keep that into consideration. Thank you!
    Elana likes this.
         
        10-25-2012, 10:31 AM
      #30
    Green Broke
    Get a hole punch.. make it fit... :)
    If you don't have a hole punch, a small drill will work (a bit of overkill.. but.. hey)..
    Elizabeth Bowers likes this.
         

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