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Great to ride, rude on the ground...

This is a discussion on Great to ride, rude on the ground... within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category

     
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        11-03-2010, 06:08 PM
      #11
    Trained
    I agree with the Kiwi. Jiggy-Joggy is from too hot of feed. Bitey-kickey is because you have allowed your horse to become an ill-mannered dink. I also second her DVD choices. They will completely change the way you deal with horses.
         
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        11-04-2010, 09:49 PM
      #12
    Foal
    I agree with everyone, you need to earn respect. However, I am not a believer in the "whoever moves the others feet is the boss", I work on the concept of a 50.5% (you) : 49.5% (horse) partnership. Maybe it depends on the circumstance, but I know for my mare who I have done a lot of groundwork with, asking her to move this way and move that the other way and back up and blah blah blah just for the sake of it frustrates her. A horse won't invest energy in doing something unless they see the point in it, it's in their nature to want to conserve energy for a time of NEED. (Of course if you are bullying him around, he will move out of fear).
    You constantly nagging and pushing them around is the equivalent to an overly bossy leader who, if you observe herds, the other horses do not wish to interact with. There is that crazy alpha horse who chases horses away for no apparent reason (no feed, no danger, no other horses reacting to any situation) and the other horses simply move away in annoyance. They want to follow a calm and gentle leader, who will take lead to give them confidence but is not chasing, pushing, and annoying them.
    Of course being too timid when your horse is kicking and biting can be dangerous, but to me it is about balance. I guess it depends how you want your relationship to develop but I would recommend some of Mark Rashid's stuff, his attitude on horse-human relationships really opens your eyes.

    Also.. have you had him looked over by a vet? Just to be safe..
         
        11-04-2010, 09:56 PM
      #13
    Trained
    I don't care much for Mark Rashid. I've read a couple of his books and they don't ring true to me. I think he makes alot of stories up.
         
        11-05-2010, 12:43 AM
      #14
    Yearling
    I do agree with the concept of whom ever moves who's feet is the boss. However I do agree that bossing the horse around pointlessly, just because you can is counter productive ( I will leave that up to students of Parelli, oooohh - oh no, she did not say that!!!! ). BUT I do think that you need to be able to move your horses feet where you want them, I personally like to be able to move my horse one foot at a time backwards, forwards and sideways when I am doing gates from her back. Not all gates are equal and sometimes the more control you have of the horse the safer and easier it is. I also like to be able to moves my horses feet (or keep her standing in one spot) from the ground if I have to get off to cross a gnarly creek, I expect my horse to wait on the one side of the creek while I make my way across and when I am safely on the other side she can make her own way over. Sometimes I have a better understanding of the maneuvering required to perform a certain task safely and easily so I want to be able to lead my horse step by step, one foot at a time.
         
        11-05-2010, 04:28 AM
      #15
    Foal
    Couldn't have said it better myself kiwigirl. Just because you have control of the feet doesn't mean you become the pushy aggressive leader no one wants to be around, it means that you have control over your horse in situations where it's beneficial, or even necessary, to direct your horse step by step.
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        11-05-2010, 10:08 PM
      #16
    Foal
    I think you guys are misinterpreting what I said. I never said "don't move your horses feet around", clearly it is necessary, or we would be squashed to death daily. But if she is already struggling bonding with her horse on the ground, EXCESSIVE demanding to move here,there and everywhere when he already KNOWS it, will not be productive. Establishing the movements with him and checking = necessary. Repeating, repeating, repeating = not.

    And I guess it depends on your horse as far as Mark Rashid, I really changed my relationship with my mare after reading some of his stuff. In my experience, you can be more dominant with a gelding and have a good, strong bond but with mares (at least the ones I have dealt with and owned) they won't respond to it the same way, it becomes irritating to them. A quote I love is " a mare will either be the worst horse you've ever had or the best". And for me, establishing a partnership instead of a boss and follower relationship has worked wonders.
         
        11-05-2010, 10:27 PM
      #17
    Super Moderator
    Bronson,
    I agree with your saying that mares often require greater tact. If anyone is going to hold a grudge, it'll be a mare. I also agree that pointless moving of feet just to move them is going to build resentment in some horsess. However, a horse that is agressive or has a big push might require the handler to get big at least once, enough to change his mind and open it to further, softer work. I, personally, love Mark Rashid's writing. I have never met him, but he strikes me as an every day kind of guy. He has ,, on his website, DVD's that one can RENT! I call that pretty decent.
    Regarding mares, the Arabs preferred to ride mares into battle because of their bravery and had a saying, "A good Stallion will die for you, but a good Mare , she will kill for you!"
         
        11-05-2010, 11:01 PM
      #18
    Yearling
    I think you guys are missing the point that the OP is talking about an OTTB. Bronson3000 you said:
    But if she is already struggling bonding with her horse on the ground, EXCESSIVE demanding to move here,there and everywhere when he already KNOWS it, will not be productive. Establishing the movements with him and checking = necessary. Repeating, repeating, repeating = not.

    The thing is I don't believe that the horse in question does Know what is being asked and the OP has admitted to being new to horses so doesn't Know how or what to ask. I'm not arguing with you, I agree with your position however you are assuming that both the horse and rider have some fundamentals in establishing good ground behaviour but the fact that the horse is biting and kicking indicates that this is not so. This is my interpretation of how this thread started, maybe I missed something.


         
        11-06-2010, 12:43 PM
      #19
    Foal
    Agreed Kiwi, I just got caught up in trying to explain my point of view in working softly with horses.
         
        11-06-2010, 01:09 PM
      #20
    Foal
    He's disrespectful and needs to learn his manners. It doesn't matter if he knows what to do on the ground or not. He doesn't know how to do it with this owner. If the owner doesn't know how to get his respect, then the owner needs some outside help to teach her how. Working softly with him isn't going to cut it at this point. He's kicking and biting and is sometimes successful. He needs a serious come to Jesus meeting. I wouldn't be waiting around for this horse to seriously hurt or kill me before getting the help I need. I would have done it already.
         

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