grumpiness... needs sorting out!! - Page 4

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grumpiness... needs sorting out!!

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    07-01-2011, 06:39 PM
Super Moderator
I don't think you understand my perspective at all.

I do not have a clue what you are talking about in most of your post. It does not sound like anyone that is an effective trainer that I know of -- either the positive or the negative methods you try to explain.

"all too often one also sees the overpowering, overly domineering, always getting after the horse approach too, which is just as dangerous and damaging."
I cannot make any sense out of this unless you are referring to people that are constantly 'pecking' at a horse. If this is what you are referring to, yes! It is an even bigger problem than a permissive person that does not make a horse mind at all. It is certainly not an effective way to improve bad behavior.

"I see these overly restricted horses all the time. Sure they maybe 'safe' but they are also insensitive, dull, and stressed (internalized). They are the same horses that suddenly take to aggression towards the other horses, get stomach ulcers, start cribbing and weaving, the list goes on. Nobody listens and nobody cares."
I do not have a clue of what you are talking about here either. In more than 50+ years of training horses for all events as well as starting 50 or more colts a year for at least 15 of those years and retraining countless spoiled horses, I cannot even relate anything you said to real life experiences.

The closest I could come would be the people that 'play' the Parelli games ad nauseam by picking and picking at horses to get them to do the games just perfectly. I have found so many of these horses to be mad, aggressive and hate people to the point that when a horse is advertised as 'Parelli level ??? Horse' I do not even look at them for a customer. Even those do not get ulcers, crib, weave and pick up other vices that actually come from poor stabling, feeding and horse-keeping practices.

I think you are over-thinking how horses think and are attributing human and dog type psychological problems that horses do not even get close to exhibiting. I do not think any of these behaviors you say happen have actually been observed or are related to any real life experiences. They sound like 'would-be theories' to me.

What is an actual fact that comes from years of re-training many, many aggressive horses that have severely injured their handlers / riders is that your should NEVER pick or peck at a horse or bang it around enough to just barely make it mind. You need to get after a horse really hard for actually doing something really wrong and then YOU LEAVE IT ALONE. You then treat it like any other horse. If you have gotten after a horse severely enough to be effective, you never have to get after the horse more than once or twice. [The second mis-deed is usually only half-hearted.] If you have to get after a horse more than that, you are not doing it correctly and are totally ineffective and are probably just 'pecking' on the horse.

Horses handled correctly from the beginning just do not need to be 'gotten after' and previously spoiled horses are 'happy as a clam' once they understand how the 'herd structure' works with you and know that you are the undisputed leader of the herd. All of this other theory of yours just does not exist if a trainer / handler is effective and does it right. It has nothing to do with 'dominating' or 'bullying' a horse. It has nothing to do with instilling fear or dominance. It has everything to do with respect and it has everything to do with effectively teaching a horse its place in the pecking order in your herd.

The only other thing I see that I completely agree with is that anyone working with a horse should be quiet, deliberate, never lose their temper and never make a lot of noise or make big motions. Scaring one is not going to fix it any way and any discipline done in anger is bad and usually ineffective, too.

If you notice, I use the word 'effective' a lot. It describes everything a good trainer does when they interact with a horse. It means that person has learned to apply the right amount of pressure at the right time, has 'backed off' at the right time and has 'effectively' gotten the right response.
It is something that the OP and her horse both desperately need to learn before he hurts someone.
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    07-01-2011, 07:05 PM
Originally Posted by Cherie    
I do not have a clue what you are talking about in most of your post.
You are not alone…I don't "get it" either.
    07-01-2011, 07:21 PM
"I do not have a clue what you are talking about in most of your post."

That's pretty obvious.

"You need to get after a horse really hard for actually doing something really wrong and then YOU LEAVE IT ALONE."

Certainly that's one way. Is it the best way?

"It does not sound like anyone that is an effective trainer that I know of"

Well of course you are entitled to your opinion. Again, I am not a trainer. That is not my intent nor my purpose. Effective? Well that's a matter of opinion. Any horse can be made to do anything regardless of the impact. That's effective. Maybe I don't consider effective to be worth squat.

Even your first post talked of kicking a horse. You are not a horse. All the talk of 'leader of the herd' is rubbish and just an excuse to cover the actions of people who really understand no better. Why if we look at documents from just 60 years ago in the US apparently certain ethnic minorities also thought differently and were not capable of certain thought processes. They also needed 'getting after really hard' if they stepped out of line. If that's all you have to resort to then I'm glad we come from different era's with all due respect. I respect your 50 years of experience, but 50 years of the wrong thing are worth no more than 1.

This lady is trying to understand her horse and all you offer is effectively to beat it? That is not horsemanship. That takes no experience, knowledge or understanding. That is the lowest common denominator.

Let agree to disagree.
    07-01-2011, 07:36 PM
Super Moderator
I am still trying to figure out what in the world you are talking about.
Even your first post talked of kicking a horse. You are not a horse. All the talk of 'leader of the herd' is rubbish and just an excuse to cover the actions of people who really understand no better.
This just leaves me shaking my head.
Again, I am not a trainer. That is not my intent nor my purpose.
This is the only thing you have said that makes any sense.

I am out of here -- unless the OP has any other questions.
    07-01-2011, 08:14 PM
Ok let's put it simply.

I spend my time day in and day out with horses like this that have been subject to your kind of approach.

You claim to be an intelligent human being. Act like it. Don't act like a horse. We can't. It fools no one. It doesn't fool me and it doesn't fool the horse.
    07-02-2011, 01:39 AM
I am not getting into the entire natural horsemanship debate, I don't have the energy.

If a horse comes at me, I go at him. When I first got Lucas he charged at me when I went to feed, I still had the food scoop in my hand, so I threw it at him, he has never charged at me since.

Horses can kill people, I am not about to pat gently on the head and allow this to happen, not in my barn. Oddly (to some) none of my horses have ever feared me.
    07-02-2011, 04:31 AM
Everyone has different opinions and I value them all... I understand what doe is saying. Read it again and you might. I know what im doing. I posted just to see other peoples opinions because its always good to take bits of methods and use them to create my own... Im going to carry this post in on my picture thread and keep every1 updated as this has turned into an argument... Just because yoy don't agree cherie doesnt mean does wrong.thankyou all for your posts
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