Having Issues...
   

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Having Issues...

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  • Horse forum horse very sensitive in chest
  • horse pins ears at canter

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    01-28-2012, 12:22 PM
  #1
Weanling
Having Issues...

Hi everyone --

I have had my mare since October. She is a 5 year old. Me and my trainer started working on her in October and she was doing GREAT for the first month and a half to two months. We had no issues. There was a period of time where my trainer and I were really busy and couldn't come out consistently. In the beginning of December or so she started acting up on the lunge line but we have since corrected that issue.

A couple of weeks ago we got our first good ride in in a while. My trainer rode her first and she did fairly good for her. I got on and she did good for me up until the end. I was going to canter her ONCE more around she she decided to kick out. I backed her all the way around the arena but she continued when I asked for the canter again. My trainer got on her and at the same time Cheyenne was kicking out my trainer made the mistake of pulling out her keys from her coat pocket (they were in the way), which escalated the problem because she spooked a bit (probably thought the keys were to be her punishment for the bad behavior she knew she was doing). My trainer ended up coming off because she bucked. She got back on and tried to settle her a bit.

After that I got on her the next day and she gave an attitude (kicking out) even at the trot. When she goes this I spin her around and keep her going forward. We put out poles and comes to keep her mind on other things besides bucking/kicking. It has to do with putting leg on her. When you put leg on, her ears pin, tail swishes, and usually a buck or kick out follows (that's why I started spinning as soon as the ears come back).

She had another 6 days off and I decided to start back at the basics. I free lunged her, lunged her, and lunged her tied down. Did perfect. As soon as I got on last night (she's fine when you get on, acts perfectly happy) but when I lay my leg on and even ask for a walk, she refuses and gets aggressive. I try to push through it but I'm not sure how far her threats will go. I told my trainer and she said just keep plugging along with it and get what you want. Last night (even though I was scared to death LOL) I got her to walk both directions (she bucked and kicked out probably 10 times).

I don't really understand where this is coming from. Supposedly she has had a history of bucking in the past (talking to the breeders and prior owners). However, she was doing SOOOOOOOOO GOOD for the first two months and then this pops up out of no where.

Someone help?

EDIT: Also, her head is low and where it's supposed to be. There are no other issues except for when I put leg on and ask her to go forward.
     
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    01-28-2012, 01:03 PM
  #2
Yearling
You'll get a lot of opinions on this. Most will be techniques that may work, will indirectly help, or help just enough to make you comfortable until it happens unexpected and you take a spill.

If you want to directly fix this problem and face it head-on, I think do this: take a lariat rope and put the loop around her flanks. With the horse on a long lead rope, send her around you in a circle. Snug the rope up around her flanks and watch her go. You'll be glad you're not on her when you see her response. Try not to get mauled because she might got kinda salty
     
    01-28-2012, 01:57 PM
  #3
Trained
Have you thought about what may be causing this problem? Also have you considered getting a different trainer? I think "spinning" her around is foolish and counterproductive and I question the trainer that would let you think that's the thing to do. Was this horse broke before you got her or did you and the trainer do it? Rather than punish a horse for a behavior you're a lot better off to help the horse find what you want it to do. I would guess that you're actually traing the horse to kick when you put leg on her. You put your leg on her, she kicks, you take your leg off her. She's learning exactly what you're teaching her and she's learning it quite well. At first she would only do it at a lope and now she'll do it at a walk.
     
    01-28-2012, 02:09 PM
  #4
Foal
Not familiar w/ this subject really, but is she in any sort of pain? When you said when you lay a leg, and ask for canter, she freaks out, and acts out.
     
    01-28-2012, 02:14 PM
  #5
Green Broke
Something to consider if she is very sensitive, over cueing can make a horse resistant.
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    01-28-2012, 02:19 PM
  #6
Weanling
Hi Kevin,

Cheyenne has had 3 months training on her as a 2 or 3 year old. She did really well for the trainer and eventually the trainer decided that she was good enough for the original owners to handle her on their own. They were not able to be consistent with her, however, and she started doing the same stuff she is doing with me. It seems she gets very sour if not worked consistently. They thought enough is enough and sold her. They sold her to a girl and her trainer and they worked with her for a short while. Again, they were not able to be consistent and I think Cheyenne's bucking and crow hopping scared the girl and she put her up for sale. When my trainer and I went to see if she'd be good enough to buy, her situation was pretty bad. She was in a very negative environment (turned out 24/7 in a pasture with 6 or 7 other horses who shunned her from the herd, and the owners had a pack of 4 or 5 dogs that chased the horses all the time). She took her and put her in the round pen to show us and she was very nervous and upset. She saddled her up and she crow hopped with the saddle on a few times. When she got on you could tell that she was still nervous but she did walk/trot both directions. The girl didn't do barely any canter work with her but asked her for a canter then (why you would ask for a new command when showing a horse to a potential buyer is beyond me) and she crow hopped with her on twice (we understood it was just because she had no idea what was being asked of her). We decided to take her on a month long trial because she had a very sweet personality and with thought her issues might be situational. When we got her she did not even know the cue for the canter, how to stand on cross ties, did not know her leads, where to put her head, and how to lunge correctly. We started very slowly and had no kicking out issues until recently. She was doing great.

By "spinning around" I mean a one rein stop kind of thing. My trainer says it is important to keep her going forward since that is the issue at hand (refusing to want to go forward) so spinning her seems to "reset" her or so it was explained to me.

I am guilty of taking my leg off when she kicks out at times. I fully understand that it is the WRONG thing to do. I try my best to keep my leg on through her hissy fits until she does the correct thing and walks forward. I understand that my actions could escalate the problem, which is why I am asking for help now. I do try my absolute best to keep the leg on her until I get what I want. Easier said then done at times.

Another thing to note, and it may or may not be related, but she is very sensitive to touch. I mean, even brushing her. She doesn't prefer it at all (I make sure to brush her sensitive parts even more). She has kicked out numerous times on cross ties when I brush by her flanks or touch her chest area. She is of course reprimanded for this behavior. I mention this because if it is happening on cross ties it probably needs to be corrected there first.

I have considered getting another trainer. My trainer has not been out since she got tossed off. She has been helping me with this and I am kind of at an odd point with her. She has been my riding instructor for 11 years and she has helped me with Cheyenne for free. She has backed off a bit and I'm not sure if it's because she doesn't want to interfere or maybe she is sick of doing it without getting paid. I am at the point where I am going to ask her if she is able to come out consistently a few times a week until I get Cheyenne back on track and I guess I'm going to offer her money. If she can not do it I will find someone else. I understand that this problem is serious and until I learn how to properly deal with it, it will only get worse.

Thanks for your response.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinshorses    
Have you thought about what may be causing this problem? Also have you considered getting a different trainer? I think "spinning" her around is foolish and counterproductive and I question the trainer that would let you think that's the thing to do. Was this horse broke before you got her or did you and the trainer do it? Rather than punish a horse for a behavior you're a lot better off to help the horse find what you want it to do. I would guess that you're actually traing the horse to kick when you put leg on her. You put your leg on her, she kicks, you take your leg off her. She's learning exactly what you're teaching her and she's learning it quite well. At first she would only do it at a lope and now she'll do it at a walk.
     
    01-28-2012, 02:30 PM
  #7
Super Moderator
Sounds like the horse is still young and has big loopholes in its training. I agree with Kevin in that punishing her for this is counterproductive. Especially, backing her all the way around the arena. To me that will only make her less willing to go forward and more "back or upward" thinking.
     
    01-28-2012, 02:35 PM
  #8
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyliny    
Sounds like the horse is still young and has big loopholes in its training. I agree with Kevin in that punishing her for this is counterproductive. Especially, backing her all the way around the arena. To me that will only make her less willing to go forward and more "back or upward" thinking.
That is only what I have been taught. I don't feel comfortable backing her anymore when she is like that. I do NOT want to deal with a rearing horse.
     
    01-28-2012, 03:08 PM
  #9
Trained
Quote:
A couple of weeks ago we got our first good ride in in a while.
Consistency is key. She's only 5 years old. One day of training every couple of weeks isn't going to cut it. She needs daily training. Who knows what holes are lurking around in her training, you've only had her a few months...

This is why I don't have green horses anymore. LoL, Too much work when it's cold outside. :)
     
    01-28-2012, 03:09 PM
  #10
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly22790    
Hi Kevin,

Cheyenne has had 3 months training on her as a 2 or 3 year old. She did really well for the trainer and eventually the trainer decided that she was good enough for the original owners to handle her on their own. They were not able to be consistent with her, however, and she started doing the same stuff she is doing with me. It seems she gets very sour if not worked consistently. They thought enough is enough and sold her. They sold her to a girl and her trainer and they worked with her for a short while. Again, they were not able to be consistent and I think Cheyenne's bucking and crow hopping scared the girl and she put her up for sale. When my trainer and I went to see if she'd be good enough to buy, her situation was pretty bad. She was in a very negative environment (turned out 24/7 in a pasture with 6 or 7 other horses who shunned her from the herd, and the owners had a pack of 4 or 5 dogs that chased the horses all the time). She took her and put her in the round pen to show us and she was very nervous and upset. She saddled her up and she crow hopped with the saddle on a few times. When she got on you could tell that she was still nervous but she did walk/trot both directions. The girl didn't do barely any canter work with her but asked her for a canter then (why you would ask for a new command when showing a horse to a potential buyer is beyond me) and she crow hopped with her on twice (we understood it was just because she had no idea what was being asked of her). We decided to take her on a month long trial because she had a very sweet personality and with thought her issues might be situational. When we got her she did not even know the cue for the canter, how to stand on cross ties, did not know her leads, where to put her head, and how to lunge correctly. We started very slowly and had no kicking out issues until recently. She was doing great.

By "spinning around" I mean a one rein stop kind of thing. My trainer says it is important to keep her going forward since that is the issue at hand (refusing to want to go forward) so spinning her seems to "reset" her or so it was explained to me.

I am guilty of taking my leg off when she kicks out at times. I fully understand that it is the WRONG thing to do. I try my best to keep my leg on through her hissy fits until she does the correct thing and walks forward. I understand that my actions could escalate the problem, which is why I am asking for help now. I do try my absolute best to keep the leg on her until I get what I want. Easier said then done at times.

Another thing to note, and it may or may not be related, but she is very sensitive to touch. I mean, even brushing her. She doesn't prefer it at all (I make sure to brush her sensitive parts even more). She has kicked out numerous times on cross ties when I brush by her flanks or touch her chest area. She is of course reprimanded for this behavior. I mention this because if it is happening on cross ties it probably needs to be corrected there first.

I have considered getting another trainer. My trainer has not been out since she got tossed off. She has been helping me with this and I am kind of at an odd point with her. She has been my riding instructor for 11 years and she has helped me with Cheyenne for free. She has backed off a bit and I'm not sure if it's because she doesn't want to interfere or maybe she is sick of doing it without getting paid. I am at the point where I am going to ask her if she is able to come out consistently a few times a week until I get Cheyenne back on track and I guess I'm going to offer her money. If she can not do it I will find someone else. I understand that this problem is serious and until I learn how to properly deal with it, it will only get worse.

Thanks for your response.

The underlined says 1 thing to me: You need a new trainer. She honestly sounds scared of this horse, and won't admit it. So that's step number 1.

Step 2: Ground work. This horse is overly sensitive on the ground (brushing and things) so you need to get her over that. Plus, she needs full respect on the ground before you work on the saddle. Teach her cues from the ground that will translate to the saddle (example: move hindquarters over on the ground with a rub on her side, roughly where your calf will rub when you ask in the saddle.). She needs a few lessons in respect, a few in cues and listening, and a lot of undoing bad training. With every buck/kick that results in her getting the pressure off, someone has taught her that is acceptable. So you need to START OVER as if she was a green filly that has never seen a saddle. Find the holes, fix them, and then move on.

I see a serious train wreck coming if you don't fix the whole "freaks out when she feels pressure" thing.

So yes, start over. Find those things, and overall be patient. She needs a lot of work, but you'll get to the point where you can ride her safely and normally, just don't rush it.
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