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Head Tossing Problem

4K views 23 replies 10 participants last post by  ligoleth 
#1 ·
Hello, first time poster. I am wondering if anyone might have a solution or insight for a head tossing problem that I am having with my 21 year old arabian gelding.

I purchased this gelding a year ago after leasing him for six months. He was used by the previous owner for trail riding and some local shows. We had a vet check done at the time of the purchase and then had the vet out again this month for shots and a check up and his teeth are fine and he appears to be in great condition.

Whenever my gelding is asked to do any kind of 'work' (which consists of asking for a trot or canter) while riding that he does not want to do, his reaction is to toss his head. He will toss it up, down or side to side. It seems to be done out of defiance or a nervous energy and not out of pain, as he is fine on the lunge line and under saddle while walking or jogging. I try to not get distracted by the behavior and ignore it like a trainer had advised me to do, but it hasn't seemed to get rid of his behavior and can be very challenging to ride with. The head tossing will often times last the duration of the exercise.

I was told by his previous owners who had owned him for about 15 years that this was just one of his quirks and their solution was to ride him in a german martingale. I do not ride him in the martingale because it did not seem to be a solution. I come from a western pleasure background and ride him in a copper quarter moon snaffle.

I should mention that this is the first horse that I have owned. I previously had leased for a number of years and taken lessons.
Does anyone have experience with a horse who exhibits similar behavior? What kinds of solutions did you come up with? Thanks in advance!
 
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#2 ·
hmmm... I was going to say it's the bit you're using but you say he's fine at a walk or a jog right? When you are riding him.
He's just doing it when HE doesn't want to do what YOU want him to do.
I've had my "new" horse now for just over a year and he would flip his head when he didn't want to do something when I first got him. It was so annoying and it made me nervous because - what's he going to do NEXT!!!
I went back to square one with him and put him the round pen. I found out right off the bat that he had NO respect for me. He was super sweet on the ground, great ground manners etc....
But when I started riding him, he had his own agenda.
So in the round pen we worked out ALOT of things. Once the light bulb came on that I was the leader, he softened and started to listen. I really worked on having him move his hindquarters when I asked, his front end when I asked, back up, send in a circle and switch directions when asked. It made a HUGE difference!!
All that head tossing went away. Now he did it once on the trail when he saw some cows (we never see cows) and so this excited him and he wasn't sure what to do so he tried to revert backwards. I put his feet to work. I had him do some zig zags - to the left, right, back up etc.... If he had kept it up, I would have gotten off and done my ground work right there. My reins are long enough to attach one end to his rope halter (or carry a longer line on board if you use split reins) and I would have sent him in some circles each directions etc.. MOVE HIS FEET and get him listening to me.
It works like a charm.
I think he's just not listening to you and you need to give him a job to do when he does the head tossing.
I certainly would NOT ignore it. It will turn into more down the road. Nip it in the bud right now.
I did try to ignore it when my horse was doing it on the trail and it turned into crow hopping and bucking.
And when you're doing the ground work on a line or loose in a round pen - YOU control the speed of his feet. If he wants to slow trot, make him move those feet into a canter then let him trot, pressure and release. he just needs to know who the leader is in his life now.
I dont think his previous owner ever dealt with it since they told you it was a "quirk" and to just use a martingale......
It's not a quirk - it's him saying, "no, I'm the boss and you are below me."
 
#8 ·
It's not a quirk - it's him saying, "no, I'm the boss and you are below me."
I really have to take strong exception to this statement. We cannot sit here on a forum not looking at an actual live horse or knowing that much about its history and just point blank make a definitive statement like that. We don't have supernatural powers, we are really just speculating here.

I agree with the late Australian horseman and problem horse specialist Tom Roberts that the majority of cases of bad behaviour in horses are not horses playing up on purpose, but horses with difficulties caused by some kind of pain or bad association or unintentional mis-teaching by a human. Sometimes it requires a fair bit of detective work to get to the root of a behaviour problem, but prematurely jumping to the conclusion that you are dealing with dominance behaviour without eliminating other possibilities is often unhelpful.

I've seen a lot of dominance behaviour because I grew up on a stud farm with a number of stallions and also young colts around at all times. Dominance behaviour can be really obvious, but the scenario outlined by DPW does not sound that clear-cut. I find it interesting that the horse only engages in the head-tossing behaviour at greater speeds and with certain exercises. He does not want to do them and is clearly signalling displeasure - but whether this is because he just doesn't want to do those things outright, or there is something behind it that causes a real problem for the horse, is an open question.

Just for example, saddle problems often don't show up until there are faster speeds, or there is posting, or jumping, or tight turning. Is he still in the same saddle his previous owners rode him with? Does he have another saddle to try? Is his saddle (/saddles) recently professionally fitted? (Horses change shape, saddles wear.) Does he head toss if you ride him bareback at the trot / canter?

An expert looked at the saddle - get a second opinion. An expert is only human too and can miss things - the more brains consider this problem, the better. I've heard a story where a problem in a perfectly fitted saddle was a little metal pin in the stuffing that shouldn't have been there, nobody noticed it, and it pin-pricked the horse the moment there was more impact on the saddle, like posting trotting.

I've also heard a story of a horse that had a bone sliver that had splintered off one of its spinal processes during a fall, which caused pain during riding, and noone ever knew about it until after someone interested in horse anatomy went back to look at the unearthed skeleton of the horse some time after its burial and noticed the injury. This horse had inexplicably started "acting up" partway through its career, and people thought it had just gone ornery, and tried disciplining the animal. I'd hate to discipline an animal into meekly putting up with something painful I've not taken the trouble to figure out. A horse can't speak, so we have a responsibility to use our brains.

So if the horse doesn't head-toss bareback, I'd look at saddle issues. If it does, I'd look at back issues, and saddle issues that might be causing back pain.

Head-tossing only during certain exercises or gaits can also be a problem with the bit, or rider's hands, or the teeth / mouth.

There are so many possibilities here. I'm only scraping the surface.
 
#3 ·
My horse does this if she's ridden in a rope halter. She has a VERY sensitive face. If nothing else, I would check the fit of your horse's bridle and bit to make sure it's sitting in the right place and not putting undo pressure where it shouldn't. BTW, my horse does much better with almost no head tossing to speak of in a Nurtural Bitless bridle. She's 1/2 arab (that's the excuse I make for her.) :)
 
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#4 ·
Thank you for your replies!

We spent a large portion of the first two months of our relationship almost entirely on the ground with a trainer coming out to help me. It seemed to really help him calm down and stop being so reactive and spooky. I do also notice that his head tossing will calm down after making him move while lunging, but then start right back up again once I get on him. Do I get off and try lunging again? or make his feet move while on him so that he doesn't think I will get off when he starts the head tossing? Up to this point he has never blown up on me.

We don't ride with any kind of halter on and I did have his bridle and saddle looked at by a professional.

Thanks!
 
#7 ·
Well that's good you did some ground work with him. If you get the response you want in the saddle to move his feet, do it in the saddle. Get him to lateral flex, move his hind end over. Side pass him or teach him if he doesn't know how - that will keep his mind busy. Anything you can think of to re-direct him and get him listening to you. If that fails, I'd have someone you trust watch you and him and see what they suggest.
 
#5 ·
Does he do this with other riders? Perhaps a trainer that exceeds your own experience?
Often if there is no pain reaction due to a physical problem, head tossing with occur due to the rider:
- Pulling on the reins
- Having a 'in the middle' contact where by your contact is 'light' but everything the horse moves its head you accidentally bump it in the mouth
- Riding heavily on the horses back (ie thumping down in trot or canter)
- Gripping with your thighs/knees
- Legs bumping at every stride
- Not riding the horse forward

Plus more obviously!!! Perhaps you are brave enough to post video/photos of you riding so we can give more accurate help on what is happening? Otherwise get a trainer to assess what is going on.
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#6 ·
May be a dumb question but how are his ears? Is there anything in his ears or behind his ears that might be bugging him?

If he's just being a pill, your solution is to ride him forward and ignore it. Once he realizes it dose not change the gam plan, he'll give up. If it's been a long habit it will take time to fix.
 
#14 ·
May be a dumb question but how are his ears? Is there anything in his ears or behind his ears that might be bugging him?
This is a really good question, actually. Some joggers report hearing "clicking" noises when going at faster speeds / with any significant jolting to the body, which can be caused by things like little calcifications in the semicircular canals. So you could get "there's an insect in my ear" type behaviour without an insect in the ear and just caused by more jolting / higher speeds. I wouldn't think that's a huge probability, given some of the other descriptions of the behaviour, but it's the kind of thing that isn't completely eliminated either, as his head tossing doesn't all have to go back to a single cause. Also looking behind the ears, any issues where the halter / bridle sits, etc - good thinking!

DPW, really interesting that he head tosses on the lunge as well. Is there any chance of posting a little clip of him exhibiting the behaviour while working?

It would be really super if you could keep us posted on what the chiropractor and any other people looking at your horse have to say! :)
 
#9 ·
Personally, I would do some investigating before you start trying to treat it as a behavioural issue. In this order:

1)Pain. Double check the saddle, saddle pad, bit, his teeth, back, the major joints and get a chiropractor to look at him. A poorly fitting saddle, bit that doesn't fit his mouth shape, saddle pad with a lump, various mouth issues and muscle/alignment issues can all cause head tossing to show up at faster speeds, as a sign of discomfort.

2) You. As Kayty mentioned, several rider errors can encourage the behaviour. have someone that is honest and experienced watch you ride, to make sure you are not inadvertently causing the problem.

3)behavioural. Some horses do it out of lack of respect, in essence disagreeing with what you are asking them. If this is the cause, it will escalate to more and more disrespectful behaviour down the road. Or, the horse may have never been taught to properly give to pressure, or likely learned from past riders that faster speed = high chance of getting their mouth accidentally yanked, grabbed or other wise abused by the rider. Some riders are afraid of speed, have poor seats or unstable hands that tend to yank when they get tense(like at faster speeds). It doesn't take long for a bad rider to frustrate a horse, especially a sensitive type like an arab.

If its #3, I find asking for a one rein stop when the head tossing starts can really help. Some where on here Cherie posted on another thread about fixing this issue, and the post was very logical and well put. I'll see if I can track it down.
 
#11 ·
Thank you for all of the replies!

He does exhibit this behavior with no saddle or bridle when we are lunging and I initially ask for a faster speed or different gait. The head tossing will typically stop by the end of our lunging session.

I should note, he will toss his head at feeding time and while running around with our other horse. At feeding time, I will either back him up or run him off until he stands quietly.

His previous owner had said that at one point while he was in the care of her parents, his teeth had been neglected and it was then that the behavior became a lot more prominent. After he had started receiving proper dental care, the head tossing still remained.

I am going to have someone come out and watch me ride this weekend to make sure that there are no glaring problems with my riding. I will also start looking into a chiropractor.

Thank you all again.
 
#13 ·
Interesting. Head tossing when with other horses can be a playful move or dominant. Our mare does it when we set horses loose onto pasture. Actually it's a snaking head type toss.
Is his head tossing different at feeding time than when at work? Or is it the same type?
If it got worse when his teeth were bad, it could just be a habit now or expecting something as the other poster posted. How much time has gone by since then? They usually figure it out quite fast tho that it doesn't hurt anymore.
I found out my boy didn't like his saddle rigged using the V rigging. Saddle could be rigged either way - full rig or V.
He'd be all over the place when saddling. My first thought was, ok.. saddle fitting issues. But the saddle was made for him and it fit REALLY well. Good sweat patterns and he moves wonderful in it in every gait. So, I thought, maybe saddle pad.... I just couldn't figure it out.
But it was getting worse when saddling. He saw me coming with the saddle and he'd get all worked up.
So, I thought... ok then, I'm going to just rig it a different way - a shot in the dark. He started getting better each time.
It probably took him a couple of weeks before he realized, oh, she's not doing it up the other way! :)
He'd start to tense up and I'd cinch ultra slow, not all at once. Now he's totally fine. I called my saddle maker and she just said, "I have no idea why he likes it that one way - doesn't matter tho - just do what he is comfortable with - don't worry about it."
Sometimes they are hard to figure out. And you really have to listen to them and figure out what they are saying.
Now when I mentioned to put his feet to work and he is trying to be boss. I didn't mean to say, "get tough on him!!!" No. Just some nice flex exercises and show him he can listen and flex and this will also show him that you're not going to hurt him with heavy hands. And he WILL get a release and rewarded. Head tossing bad, flexing, listening, good.
You're certainly not going to hurt him by doing that now either while waiting for a chiropractor etc..... And maybe he'll tell you something while doing these exercises. Try backing him under saddle using very little rein pressure and using leg and see how he gives to it. Using your feet up by his shoulders - tap, tap.... Just a couple steps.
OH AND... what type of snaffle did you say you are using?? I'd have to go back to your original post... He's an arab? Most Arabs have low pallets. I'd stay away from the nut cracker effect snaffles. And some horses don't like alot of tongue pressure.
So something that has a bit of a port like a myler MB04 is nice. My husband's Arab has been going in a dog bone snaffle for many years. And I've seen some behaviors in her that wasn't "bad" but just not "great." Something was off. SHe would toss her head when asked to stop. And he's pretty light on the reins (most of the time). I switched bits on her and put her in a Myler 04 and she is much better. Happier horse.
 
#12 ·
what could be happening is that the previous pain he had, which initially caused the head tossing, may have had a longer lasting psychological effect.

This doesn't mean that he is being naughty, defiant, or what have you, it just means that he grew used to the pain, and expects it. Thus, reacting when there is no pain.
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#15 ·
If it is a habit, you might be able to break the habit by trying either a bitless bridle or a curb bit. Both will have a different feel and may get him out of his habit pattern. I've also had some people tell me their horses dislike metal trigger snaps on the ends of reins but will go well if the reins are attached by leather.
 
#17 ·
I will check his ears this evening just to make sure that isn't part of the problem. He has been doing this for 8+ years at this point and I would be very surprised if that's what has been causing it.

I was talking to my husband about the head tossing last night and he pointed out that Beau (the gelding) only seems to toss his head when being asked to trot fast or canter in the arena. I don't often ask him to go faster than a walk while we are out on the trails, but the few times that I have, he has always complied and seemed very enthusiastic about going faster without tossing his head.

I will try and get a video of him on the lunge line this weekend, assuming the weather cooperates.
 
#21 ·
This is a tough one and I don't think there is one right answer. With a horse this age, as others have said, it could have started out as a pain issue and morphed into a behavioral one that is now deeply ingrained. It could be vision problems, pain, habit, resistance, hearing,some combo of the above. I know what I would do and I will tell you,....obviously you may choose to do different.. This is probably going to be really hard to stop, but I think you should try.
1) I would have a couple of vets and some specialists do as complete of an assessment as I could afford. I would check eyes, ears, neuro, back, again teeth, i mean a really, really complete check, gonna have to shell out some money, but these horses cannot talk to us, he could still be reacting to discomfort or abnormality. If that is clear...
2) Go back to training. Let me start by saying I would never get on this horse without a standing martingale or a western tie down while this behavior goes on. I am normally extremely opposed to "gagets" but you are asking for a broken face if you ride him without one. Again, just MHO.
2) Starting with longing....if he tosses his head on the lunge,, I think I would try asking for an immediate change of direction the second that head starts flipping. Watch some Clinton Anderson "longing for respect" and notice the frequent changes of direction and how he asks for them, escalating the pressure. Make that head tossing really not pay for him and additionally it will refocus him on you and re-establish your leadership. Shortly after the direction change, ask for whatever it was that elicited the head tossing that time (faster gait, whatever) and if he tosses again, boom, direction change. He may start to realize it is a lot of work to toss your head on the longe.
3) While riding, with your tie down, they can and will still flip their head and show resistance, so you can still work on it, but he cannot get the range to break your nose. So, I think I would work a lot at slower gaits, walk trot transitions, and I would start flexing this horse a *lot*. Teach him to do a really good give and be soft flexing at the stand still. The when you are riding, teach him to flex softly while he is moving, get lots of elasticity in the head and neck. Then when the head flips, flex. Start showing him every time that head flips, he has to keep working but is going to have to give laterally. As soon as he softens and gives, release and continue your work. If he really gets obnoxious you can do a flex and hindquarter disengagment, but I would avoid that if you can, you want it to be an inconvenience for him to head toss but not totally disrupt the lesson.
These lessons, riding and longing need to be short and sweet. I would say about twenty minutes of focused work. This will be tiring for both of you, it is teaching him to completely change his reactions to being worked. Try to end on a positive note, but work with what he is giving you that day. You may not be able to sustain a trot without head tossing one day, but maybe he can make a walk to trot transition without doing it, there is your positive note.

If you are going to try to change this behavior, it is going to require a good plan, a trainer with some good ideas, and *consistency*. He is not going to be the type of horse you can just jump on and enjoy, if you ignore the problem for one day it could set you back weeks. You might consider just sending him to a trainer for a few months and let them work on it. Take lessons on him if you can during that period so they can show you how they are working with him and you can learn to do it too. Be mindful of someone who is abusive or impatient. Let them know you realize it is a tough problem and will take time. If you are uncomfortable with their methods, you are probably right, and you can always come here and run things by us, you know you will get feedback :lol:

Typically, if a horse is tossing their head, I rule out physical probs, put them in the mildest bit possible, and stay off their face, that solves the problem in about 75% of cases....my own mare was a head tosser when I first got her. But this horse has a long standing, persistant issue, regardless of the cause. I think he is well beyond the "ignoring it" phase unfortunately. Best of luck to you, and be careful :)
 
#23 ·
Let me start by saying I would never get on this horse without a standing martingale or a western tie down while this behavior goes on. I am normally extremely opposed to "gagets" but you are asking for a broken face if you ride him without one.
I think that's really important. You can also use a curb bit like bsms suggested; it counters head tossing, and also totally changes the feel of the bit connection for the horse, which can help him learn something new in itself too. It's not "business as usual." Curb bits have a gradual action (the lever turns before the bit pressure gradually increases inside the mouth) so when the horse does try to head toss, he's not giving himself a painful direct jolt in the bars of the mouth, the chain takes some of the pressure and encourages him to drop his head, and the bit stays more steady in the mouth. Believe it or not, horses don't always stop doing stuff that's painful to them - especially if they are unsettled; removing pain helps them learn - calm conditions are best for learning.

Super training suggestions from KP.
 
#22 ·
Hey RR1, if you're still there, I just wanted you to know that, for what it's worth, I also think you have lots of sensible suggestions in your posts, and this didn't come through at all when I was objecting to one of your statements earlier in this thread. For this I apologise. I am used to peer review situations where it is the job of everyone to check everyone else's thinking as part of the process to improve scientific understanding. As we're none of us perfect thinkers, it works well for science, and I think it's also one of the things operating here that makes this particular horse forum a cut above a lot of others I have seen, and contributes to such a high level of discussion around here. If I get sloppy in my thinking, people pick up on it, and it sharpens me! And there's always lots of ideas that haven't occurred to me. It's great! :)


Happy riding, and best wishes from the Southern Hemisphere!
 
#24 ·
Heres a thought:
I once knew a horse that had troubles with his bit. He didn't like his shanked bit which was a broken bit (the bar wasn't solid, it was like a snaffle), so it was suggested a dog bone might do him good if he didn't care for the poking in his pallet.

Well... we got him a dog bone shanked bit, which was milder, and for a while he seemed more responsive. Until he continued to shake his head, and be less responsive than we liked.

Bring in my instructor's sister: She takes a look at him, and switches him into a solid curb. Supposedly, the bit had too many moving parts and it sent him too many signals that he cared for. Having a solid, unmoving bit, seemed to his liking and he performed much better.
 
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