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Headset advice wanted

6K views 75 replies 17 participants last post by  inowhavenomoney 
#1 ·
Hello,

I'd love some opinions on a few issues.

First of all, I'm working with mare and I'm running into to quite a few problems. She's has so much energy, she's fine at the walk and mostly fine at the jog, but get her into a canter and all she wants to do is run. She sticks her head in the air, but will even give to pressure she just keeps that head relatively high.

I've been training her in a snaffle and working a lot on flexing and also vertical flexion as she was resistant. She's coming along, she's soft in her mouth, at least more than she was.

Now, excuse me jumping around from topic to topic, but I've been following Clinton Anderson headset DVD, Clinton's methods have work very well with my other horse so I wanted to try his headset advice with my mare and he basically just says to flex, flex and keep flexing and then move on to vertical flexion without disregarding lateral flexion. He says then the horse will begin to soften and most all of the time their heads are lower.

Anyway that's what I have been doing with my mare, and I'm just not seeing progress, she still will give to the pressure I put on the bit but her head is always carried really high especially at the trot. I'm kind of at my wits end with her. Does anyone have experience dealing with an insanely fast horse with lots of energy, and getting them calmer and lower in their headcarriage without using artificial methods? Now that being said, I would like to know other opinions on artificial methods like draw reins and surcingle's? I love this horse and would love to show her in ranch or some English, but she's way to high in the head for anything English. Also, I know this isn't a substitute for advice from a professional, but there are no trainers in my new area and I am currently doing the best I can with DVD's and such. I'll try to attatch a picture of her head at a trot , this was when I was back using the Kimberwick.
 
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#2 ·
Looks like a perfectly normal head carriage to me, certainly not to high for a lot of English events.

You want it set lower and to slow her down, there is no gadget or magic pill for that, just work, hours and hours of work. Work on the circle, serpentines, anything to bend and slow her down, make her think. Steady contact on outside rein, more elastic on inside, take a feel, when she gives, give a little back, it is a constant conversation.
 
#3 ·
You're riding English so you would probably be better off looking at English riding videos than those aimed at Western riding
If the horse gets too strong when she canters than reduce the amount of cantering - so work on cantering for just a few strides and then back into trot so you don't have to worry so much about holding on to her head - which is why she's sticking it up into the air to avoid the bit.
Ride spirals and work her in shoulder in to encourage correct flexion but at the place you seem to be right now you don't want to be too concerned about her being on the vertical - more that she accepts the contact wherever you place it and she learns to develop self carriage
Look at videos from people like this, there are plenty more out there if you look




 
#4 ·
A "head set" and "frame" are not developed by using gadgets or trying to force the head into a certain position......it comes from riding correctly so the impulsion is from the hindquarters, across the rounded back, and the energy captured by your hands to send it back to the hindquarters. When ridden correctly the horse's head and frame will be correct.


Things to work on to get the horse to understand to use the hindquarters for impulsion are hill work at a walk, serpentines, circles, spirals, pole work, transitions, backing, lateral work, pivots, etc. Take the horse outside of an arena and hit the trails so she doesn't get bored with the lessons----there are very few things you can't teach on trail as well or even better than in an arena.


Remember a horse is a reflection of the rider so if you are not getting the results you want, look at how you are riding and executing the cues. Gadgets are just a temporary band aid that will spring a leak at the worst possible time.


For training, use a snaffle, one that she finds comfortable so she will be soft and responsive. I use an O-ring French link on our 20 yo mare for training.
 
#5 ·
I'd recommend removing the word headset from your vocabulary entirely. It not about the head, not really. You supple front to back, but have to ride back to front.

Check out those videos that Jaydee posted, and maybe go look for some on developing contact too. Based on that picture, I don't think you have quality enough of a contact to get her on the bit properly.
 
#6 ·
Thank you all for the wonderful advice. Her frame looks great at a walk and she's really soft in her mouth but at the trot she lifts her head up but still gives the pressure and when she does, I release. I have been watching a lot of videos on getting the horse to lift its back, but when her head is higher at the trot (like in the picture) would that be a sign I'm not getting her on the bit correctly? I'm struggling to understand that concept and how to know if I'm doing it right. My training looks like flexing left a right at a walk and trot and asking for vertical flexion and when she gives I release or hold it slightly longer and then release. We're doing lots of circles and patterns. Is there anything that I am specifically missing?
 
#8 ·
My training looks like flexing left a right at a walk and trot and asking for vertical flexion and when she gives I release or hold it slightly longer and then release. We're doing lots of circles and patterns. Is there anything that I am specifically missing?
Does that mean you are 'sawing' and I don't mean in a rough manner, but using contact one side then the other?

If so, not what you are looking for, a take and hold on the inside rein until she gives, then give a little back, don't throw away the contact, just soften a little. Vertical flexion, I'd hold of on that until you have the bend established and understood.

Do you have a trainer or experienced person there to help you? I have been going through this with my mare, and would not have got anywhere without on the spot help with my timing and degree of ask.

Horse Bridle Mammal Rein Vertebrate


Horse Bridle Animal sports Mammal Sports


 
#9 ·
^^

That's really the basics of it. Solid(but elastic) outside rein, something for them to work into. That's important, they wont work into a floppy, give and take rein. No security in that. Ask with the inside rein for a bit of jowl flexion, just enough to unlock them and fill that outside rein. Think of 'moving the bit ring' as if you were riding in a loose ring. (Which, btw, you never mentioned what she is currently in. 'Snaffle' is a very broad term).

BUT at the same time you need to be encouraging the inside hind leg to reach and to bend around the leg. It's the whole body bend that will really be doing the unlocking and filling of the outside rein. Do you know alternating leg aids? You also need the outside leg in contact to stop the ribs or hip from bulging, but not so rigid they can't move.

Since everything needs to be accompanied by forward thought, you have to be careful that you are not pulling back on the reins, even as you take up the contact and ask for bend. Very hard not to do as it can be so subtle, yet the horses will react to that tiniest bit of backwards pressure. All the joints in the upper body need to be open and mobile.

I was going to tell you some visualizations that I tell myself... but then I realized how bizarre they are and probably wont make sense to people who aren't me...
 
#10 ·
I agree that headset just follows, once you have correct movement from behind, and level that head is carried at, also depends on the way that neck ties in, and the natural topline of that horse
Since you also wish to show ranch, can I assume that your horse is a stock horse, thus you do want that level topline in the end, but not as something to focus on, try to force, but which falls into place, once the horse relaxes and gets that softness and movement from behind.
You would get the gate , if your horse was going like Golden's, in HUS, but obviously, desired showing open English
If you are just showing open English, then disregard what I am saying!
Your horse appears to be a stock horse, and when she is relaxed, seems to have a natural level topline, thus you want something like this in the end:


 
#13 ·
I want to point out what the rest of us are see when we say she's bracey, tense, hollow, or strung out. We are looking at the rest of the body, not just the head, and how it's influencing the next part of her.

I made a visual for you, contrasting the picture you supplied and one of my 4yr old. Look at the lines I've drawn in, then go back and look at Golden's horse and see the changes in her pictures too. Go watch the videos and see if you can see the same changes in those horses.

 
#14 ·
Hello,

I'd love some opinions on a few issues.

First of all, I'm working with mare and I'm running into to quite a few problems. She's has so much energy, she's fine at the walk and mostly fine at the jog, but get her into a canter and all she wants to do is run. She sticks her head in the air, but will even give to pressure she just keeps that head relatively high. so horse will give to the bit pressure, but not change in any way the tense, rushing way of going that you want to change? is this correct?
like, she's bending, tucking back vertically, but just charging right through that. ?

I've been training her in a snaffle and working a lot on flexing and also vertical flexion as she was resistant. She's coming along, she's soft in her mouth, at least more than she was.
have you been doing this at the stand still , or while walking? have you added in having the horse flex around, AND step under her body and disengage the hind end?

how is she at backing up?

Now, excuse me jumping around from topic to topic, but I've been following Clinton Anderson headset DVD, Clinton's methods have work very well with my other horse so I wanted to try his headset advice with my mare and he basically just says to flex, flex and keep flexing and then move on to vertical flexion without disregarding lateral flexion. He says then the horse will begin to soften and most all of the time their heads are lower. often they do lower their heads. sometimes, they do it out of submission and relaxation, some times they do it out of learned evasion; they learn to tuck back behind the bit quickly so that they get the release. they start doing things on autopilot, but they don't really soften in the body or mind at all.

Anyway that's what I have been doing with my mare, and I'm just not seeing progress, she still will give to the pressure I put on the bit but her head is always carried really high especially at the trot. this makes me wonder about the saddle fit, too. if it is too narrow, or so wide that it's coming down on her wither bones, then when trotting the discomfort level will go WAY up. I'm kind of at my wits end with her. Does anyone have experience dealing with an insanely fast horse with lots of energy, and getting them calmer and lower in their headcarriage without using artificial methods? you want to do western disciplines of riding with her? Is that the case? maybe this mare is not going to be happy doing that. she's got a nice , big stride in teh photo, and her head level is simply gorgeous to me, who likes thing done English/dressage style. it maybe that she likes the Kimberwick better, since it gives a bit of support with a curb chain. some horses do not like the broken mouth pieces of snaffles, and some like single joints, and other double joints. yoiu can experienent with this some, too.Now that being said, I would like to know other opinions on artificial methods like draw reins and surcingle's? I love this horse and would love to show her in ranch or some English, but she's way to high in the head for anything English. Also, I know this isn't a substitute for advice from a professional, but there are no trainers in my new area and I am currently doing the best I can with DVD's and such. I'll try to attatch a picture of her head at a trot , this was when I was back using the Kimberwick.
I do not use or recommend gadgets. looking at your riding in the other photo you posted, you have ineffective hands. holding them in a puppydog position, and with a weak connection on the rein. it looks like you are trying to get the head down by lowering your hands. this is never a good way to get a horse to lower their head, as it puts pressure downward on the bars of the horse's mouth and often only sets the horse into a tug of war 'fightback' mentality; brace against your brace.

you need to have a living, moving soft , elastic and DIRECT contact with the horse's mouth, which means you will have to put a bend in your elbow and get that elbow, to hand to mouth STRAIGH line of contact. if horse raises head, you follow up with your hands, and ask for softeness in that position (ask by tickling the reins with your fingers). horse will respond, by several ways; go up more, bend sideways, or go down. you reward the correct thing with a softening in your hand. when horse goes up, you go up with her, ask for soft/down but don't pull down. there's a world of difference.

my comments in red
 
#15 ·
I agree with Tinyliny about checking to see if the saddle is right for your horse. Your horse appears to be built naturally downhill. You have quite the arch in your lower back, which often means (per a knowledgeable saddle fitter) that your saddle is tilting you downward. If you put a saddle tilting downward on an already downhill horse, you have a serious balance problem. The horse may be compensating for that balance issue by raising the neck, and that issue will get worse at faster speeds.

If a saddle is not too narrow already, a pad can be added to raise the front of the saddle (shimming) or saddles can even be flocked so they have a slightly uphill balance to compensate.

Your horse also appears to have a big shoulder, so along with making sure the saddle has at least a flat balance or even a slightly uphill balance, I'd be positive his shoulder blade was able to clear the saddle tree when fully extended backward.

I don't believe in changing a horse's natural carriage with gadgets or training other than strength conditioning. Many disagree. I've been in the show world and have spent my share of time "reshaping" how a horse moves to look right for showing and I haven't found that it helps a horse's body or mind. However, I believe your horse would have a natural carriage for the classes you want to show in, as long as he relaxes and learns to carry himself in balance, and as long as his rider and tack support him in that. I'm guessing he doesn't trot around loose in the position he is in the photo of you trotting on him. His neck appears to come out of his body more level.
 
#16 ·
As far as headset I would specifically NOT be looking at it, esp with this sort of horse. (Yes it's the "wrong" thing to focus on anyways but it does have it's place) Worrying about her head will cause her to either be behind the bit or run through the bit.

I completely agree- she is fine! Not what I was picturing at all. A very normal relaxed head.

I would also not be working on collection, baby steps at a walk are fine, but nothing more.

I think the dressage pyramid would really help you.
 
#17 ·
trottin-depends in where you have been in the showring. I can tell you for a fact, that good training programs, including those for HUS,do NOT use any head setting devise.
The best horses are trained, with already having natural ability, good movement, the conformation that makes where you intend to show,natural, by the way they are built, far as how high that neck ties in, and thus height of head carriage,
You can't compare an Andaulsian and the way he built,and where he is shown, to a stock horse, either by natural topline or expectations
I agree that the OPs horse is not built to be atop HUS, as those have a strong TB influence, but is a stock horse, and at lower level or smaller regional shows, can be shown HUS
While horses built to have a higher head carriage are very correct having that higher head carriage, and indeed, have it as a 'standard' where they are shown, it is also true that when ahorse with a fairly level topline has his head that high, he is hollowed out and heavy on his front end.
Look at the sweepy movement of Spot My Blue Boy, where that natural level topline line is desired, and has him moving very well
I do agree, even though your horse appears to be a stock horse, watching training techniques by someone that is focused on western riding, is not the best resource
I will give you a few other resources
 
#18 ·
This horse's natural carriage, is shown in that picture at a walk
When that horse is asked to move beyond that pace ,at this point, she deos a very natural thing all horses will do, and that is to elevate the head, beyond their natural carriage.
I agree that you do not force a horse's head to any level of carriage, but for ahorse to show his natural carriage at all gaits, he need that training and softness, which in turn, has the horse relax, versus becoming bracey and raising head, beyond level he is built to carry it , where he can move to his very best.
Even stock horses built with a natural level topline, will raise their head higher, not have their neck as flat,UNTIL, they have that movement, which is not trained using devises, but rather legs and hands, with the right balance, through feel
I have trained enough stock horses, that I know the lope is the last place you get that level topline, after a lot of training in total body suppliness.
Once you have the movement, the strength , the softness, the head carriage only requires a small bit of refinement for that end complete picture
 
#19 ·
Thank yall again for this advice, I really appreciate it. Reading all of your comments, I realize I have the wrong idea and may be trying to move too fast. I had in my head the Hunter Under Saddle or even a higher maybe ranch pleasure headset and when after hours and hours of training I wasn’t getting close to that look it started to bother me. About a month ago I was researching about getting the horse to lift its back, but it all just confused me, but reading the comments it seems I need to be doing more circles and such and developing her hind end before I worry about the headset. I hear so many different opinions from people I know about different methods (some say draw reins and surcingle’s while others say circles and others say flexing) and it was all getting a bit confusing. Also to answer some questions, my English and western saddle fits her very well and I have observed in the field she naturally has a low head carriage so I do believe she is conformational able to carry her head at a lower position. I am not able to get a trainer or professional help in my area. One more thing, lately I have been working western and in a D Ring Snaffle, but she works better in the Kimberwick but I decided to try the snaffle. I think maybe this question was answered, I'm going to reread everything again, but am I doing something wrong in asking for her head with direct contact with both reins (with leg pressure) and then releasing when gives? Like tinyliny said I think my horse is automatically tucking her nose in out of habit and not actually rounding up.
 
#21 ·
it's hard to teach yourself these things without at least eyes on the ground. but, a video would help

also, generally speaking the answer to almost any problem in riding is "MORE FORWARD"

not necessarily faster, but more push from behind.
you are asking her to come into a contact, and you do give a little release when she gives, but you don't have to give much, because she gives herself the release by coming off the bit a little. if she goes too far, she can end u 'sucking behind the bit' and then the only cure for that is . . .

MORE FORWARD.

get he moving with more energy .
practice finding her mouth , and becoming able to follow it. not necessarily asking her to put her head anywhere, in fact NOT asking her to put it anywhere. YOU work on following her mouth , using your loose shoulder to allow your elbow to swing and allow your hands (straight line to bit, remember!) to move fore and aft to follow her swinging motion.

the better you are at that, the better you'll be able to hold , to firm your hands a bit , which says to her , "now , you follow me, and I'd like you to not string your head way out there".
at the same time, you do not allow her to slow down, nor speed up. (if she speeds up, don't get harder on her mouth, instead do smaller circles and just continue asking, neither lighteer nor harder, "please give to my hands, just a tiny bit"

you want her to be soft, but still BE there at the bit, not way off it, way behind it.
 
#22 · (Edited)


A lot of your problem stems from how you are holding your hands, it looks as if your reins could do with being shorter, you hands held higher with your thumbs uppermost.

Holding the reins you should only pinch each rein between your thumb and forefinger the other fingers are just for giving subtle aids.

Allow your arm, from elbow to shoulder to be like a strong piece of elastic so that it gives and takes.



With this, if I were teaching you, I would say you look like a poodle begging for its dinner!

You can see that your knuckles are to the top instead of your thumbs.
 
#23 ·
Yes, train in a snaffle
No, do NOT use draw reins , or any artificial head setting devises.
Flexing, circling can all be over done, or all have a use, done correctly, with any flexing done while moving, to create softness in the entire body, not just the poll and face
I will give you a good book to read, that I came across by chance, just at a second hand book store
Breed show hunters under saddle,from start to finish, by Melissa Sexton
 
#26 · (Edited by Moderator)
I hAppen to think, examples as I posted, in Spot MY Blur boY shows excellent movement, so really don't know your point in searching the internet, trying to come up with negatives , far as HUS

I posted a link of a good HUS horse, in an open class, by the way, not youth or non pro, plus provided alink, which shows what the criteria are for agood HUS
 
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