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Horse goes down after Saddling

32K views 57 replies 20 participants last post by  Silvera 
#1 ·
No I didn't exactly know where to post this. Any Mods who think this should be somewhere else just let me know.

Now I have a problem that I have never had anybody that could really relate to or explain things to me. Every once in a while Jake goes through a phase that will last for about 2-5 weeks. Having to do with getting cinchy and shutting down. It started a long time ago when Jake would randomly get nervous after being saddled and soon as I would untie to walk him out he would bolt, freeze, bolt, freeze until I could get him lunging he wouldn't calm down. It was dangerous as he didn't care who or what he ran into when he bolted. Like a spring fully taught and then explode. After thats over he would be 100% fine and fall asleep back at the tying post.

Now after a while I convinced him that it was not okay to run me over, or bolt. That he had to mind where he was stepping. But that also had an adverse reaction....now he goes down. He starts to lean back, bending at the knees and dropping his head down, he looks like the first few horses in this video who are being tapped. (Please no debate on the tap, I just want to give a visual. I can't ever get it on video.)



He never bucks/kicks out. I do not encourage him to go backwards at all when he starts acting like this, nor to try to get him forward, because he tends to launch forward into the tie rail, me, the trailer....anything around. Then 50% of the time he will go all the way down, often panicking about crouching down like that, tries to back up and falls over. He is very startled about falling over (this is the horse that if he trips and falls he waits calmly for me to get out of the way and tell him to get up) and often thrashes, and in his panic will fail to get up, fall over again I often end up keeping him down till he is done panicking. Then I ask him to get up (trained to lay down) and he calmly gets up easily.

He has never had any sore spots on his back, cinch area or anything. His saddles fit well and are adequately padded. Jake goes a good 4-5 months before it resurfaces again. Nothing a vet could find wrong. I'm guessing he just gets claustrophobic and looses his mind. He is negative for HYPP. It happens for both english/western I saddle slowly, he will act like this if the cinch is very very loose, like if is tied up without touching him he acts like this. So i don't think its pain. Could he be holding his breath and puffing out? Which he does puff out when I cinch up.

He did it today for the first time in over a year. I thought he was over with it. I can see it coming, make sure there is nothing and no one around him and try and wait it out. He has cases that are mild (he acts odd when I ask him to stretch out his legs, and gets a little rushy) to the full blown falling over. He never pulls back on the rail and I am always able to untie him when this happens. If I can I take him away from all dangers and let him run it out until he has it out of his system. I used to saddle him in a round pen and leave him alone when he used to be very bad and leave him for a good 45 minutes so he worked out of it himself.

Anyone had a horse that did/does this? What did you do for it? Does it go away? I'm tired of my saddles getting scratched/chipped at from him laying on them. He has never hurt himself doing this, I am always able to continue my day like nothing happened.
 
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#2 ·
It sounds like the nerve (that Endo engages when using the TAP) is being affected by the saddle. Perhaps the saddle is causing him pain, hence the bolting reactions, and is pinching so much that it's now affecting the nerves. Have you had a certified saddle fitter out?
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#3 ·
From what endo describes there is no nerve with being pinched. Its the shutting down of the flight response in coordination with claustrophobia. He explains it the release of endorphins. I've been trying to figure out why Jake would be going through the same thing, because if it is the same thing, I wonder what is making him panic?

I have not had a saddle fitter out. I have had a vet and chiropractic look at his back and they said he was fine. The only thing is that I think if it was a saddle problem, the issue would be constant? I also don't think it would happen if I have not even tightened the cinch yet. He starts acting like this when I have the cinch up against his belly, before I even tighten it. I have not changed saddles/pads anything in over 4 years it only happens rarely, but once he does it once it sticks around for a while.

Maybe I should try and record it tomorrow when I go out for my ride. Now that he started I'll have at least two weeks of working around it.
 
#4 ·
Do you girth up in the barn or outside?


My trainer told me she knew one horse who did the exact thing yours is doing. He would fall out if saddled inside the barn, but if one waited to girth him up outside in an open space where he wasn't tied, he was fine. :shock:
 
#5 ·
Inside, outside, tied to a trailer, tied to post, cross tied, ground tied, no halter at all.....all were with the same results. I wish it was that easy of just going somewhere else. o.0 I haven't been able to figure out how to avoid it.

..................................

Anyhow, I found a video I made of a very mild case a few years ago. There is a bunch of text (feel free to skip I over analyzed everything) that you can ignore. He is ground tied for this clip, its horrible quality and I would skip to 0:30 if I were you. =P



Yes Jake had an accident in cross ties, that was the first time he went down while saddling. I hadn't connected his bolting to a saddling issue then. So the cross ties issue did not start everything.
 
#6 ·
Have you tried different saddles? Cinches? Saddle pads? Have you tried it without the breastcollar?

I would switch it all up. Try a longer girth, a different saddle and a different pad. Leave the breast collar off. Also, try putting your saddle and cinch back a bit.
 
#11 ·
I use three different saddles on him, and all three have had the same issue. One close contact (english), a roper saddle and my barrel saddle. I can see if the pad / cinch makes a difference. (I don't use any breast plate or martingale for english)

Endiku - Yeah he's not going anywhere without me. =) Other than the 2 acre pasture when he retires. ;)

jwells84 - I spend a good 5-10 minutes slowly cinching him up to avoid the situation. I think it helps but doesn't always stop it. I do have a bareback pad, I'll have to see if he does it for that.

JustDressageIt - It looks normal, but he is pretty much frozen and out of it. Its hard to show it without pushing him over the edge. Its just a snap, he freezes, won't move until I ask him to. Which he goes over backwards or bolts forward. I'm forcing my sister to come with a camera tomorrow. I'll see if he acts like he did today.

Yeah, >_< Its how I used to saddle. I thought I was clever in slowing up the part where I cinched up. I then thought about the mechanics of it and I no longer do the breast collar first. No worries, I understand the dangers and changed the order of how I saddle up.
 
#7 ·
subbing. I dont know enough to give you advice, but I want updates on how he's doing! Poor guy. I'm glad he has someone who's willing to try and fix him instead of just toss him aside!
 
#8 ·
maybe try to girth him up really slow.. i've seen several horses who were apposed to be being girthed up quickly.. once the girth was in contact with skin we could only go up one hole at a time. my mare actually did nearly lye down once while i girthed her up. she seemed to be gassy(maybe had gas colic im not sure) but once i moved her round she came out of it fine.
 
#9 ·
well after watching the video. im not sure,i can tell you girthed him up pretty slowly. do you have a bareback pad?? you could put that on him and girth him up,to help you see if it is the saddle. and i'll second the try with out a breastcollar, i like a roping Girth on my mare it seems to spread out the pressure better as it is wider.
 
#10 ·
What I see in the video is very normal, up to when he starts to waver back and forth a bit. He looks relaxed and well trained to ground-tie, hence not shifting around when you "park" him. I don't see a tense horse, in fact I really don't see much put of the ordinary save for the slight wavering.
Please - please never ever do up the breastcollar first - that is very unsafe. If he were to bolt or do something stupid, the saddle would be along for the ride, but unstable.
Would be interested in hearing what Kevinshorses would say to this thread.
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#12 ·
Strange question. Is that him bowing in your avatar? How did you teach him to bow while riding? Is it possible that somehow, you are telling him to bow without knowing it?
 
#14 ·
Yeah, he bows under saddle and on the ground. He also lays down. Honestly though it has helped with keeping him calm in this situation. He used to panic, rear up and fall over. He even flipped over a few times. Now he just shuts down, goes into the bow and lays/falls down from there. Instead of throwing himself down.

His cue for laying down and bowing are tapping/holding one of the front legs and then asking him to shift his weight back. He does lay down when frustrated but its different. He will hold up one front leg and fold his back legs first and then lay down. If he is told to bow/lay down he is very very calm. While when he is being saddled, he is freaking out. He will thrash and try to get up immediately.
 
#15 ·
I've seen this happen with two different horses. One was our TWH when I was first getting her used to being saddled, which went away on it's own. The second was another boarder at our stable. When he started to go down, he was brought back forward each time until he quit trying to go down. I don't know why they do it or any advice to get them to stop.
 
#16 ·
What is going on with your horse and other horses who do the same thing is a form of "balking" which means the horse "stops short and refuses to proceed, refusing or likely to refuse to proceed or act as directed or expected" credited to Webster's Dictionary. Balking is also known as just being plain contrary. I've known of some horses who do the same thing when they are being asked to load up in a trailer. About the only thing you can do is let your horse work through being moody and contrary. By no means let his antics sway you from keeping on doing what you want him to do, because that is exactally what he wants you to do.
 
#17 ·
I've seen this happen with two different horses. One was our TWH when I was first getting her used to being saddled, which went away on it's own. The second was another boarder at our stable. When he started to go down, he was brought back forward each time until he quit trying to go down. I don't know why they do it or any advice to get them to stop.
Hmm. I thought it would be something seen out of horses that are being started. Jake is 20 years old and has been rode all most all of his life as far as I have known. Well at least I know other horses do it to, thanks.

What is going on with your horse and other horses who do the same thing is a form of "balking" which means the horse "stops short and refuses to proceed, refusing or likely to refuse to proceed or act as directed or expected" credited to Webster's Dictionary. Balking is also known as just being plain contrary. I've known of some horses who do the same thing when they are being asked to load up in a trailer. About the only thing you can do is let your horse work through being moody and contrary. By no means let his antics sway you from keeping on doing what you want him to do, because that is exactally what he wants you to do.
Its just so odd that I'm pretty sure he isn't doing it to avoid work. He always has been fine after these episodes and always has been rode directly after. (After a check of soundness of course). He has laid down when frustrated and is avoiding but it is different than this. When he is frustrated everything is calculated and planned and you can see him thinking about it. This is a panic, he gets a look on his face that you can tell 'no ones home' and when he snaps out of that he panics so bad that he trips over his own feet and falls over half the time.
 
#18 ·
I have to agree with Cori's line of questions.

You point things out in your video that to me look more like him trying to do what you have asked him to do. You move his leg forward and then you say 'see, he will not even move his leg to get more comfortable'. He is not moving his leg back because you have told him to stand with it there.

To me it seems like he is getting confused at what you want him to do. Is it do one of my tricks time or not, etc.
 
#19 · (Edited)
We had a horse come in the barn for training a couple years back who did the exact same thing. I thought I nearly killed him the first time I went to ride him. We ending up putting a fuzzy girth cover over the girth. And also doing what your doing with tightening it very slowy. I would leave it on hole one. After I bridled him, i would go to hole 2, walk out to the ring, hole three. the I would stretch his front legs out to make sure there was no pinching skin. Get on and as he was walking I would tighten it to hole 4 while in the saddle. He did get better about it over time. He was just sensitive.

Too me in that video it looks like he knows whats coming and freezes, your just going to throw the saddle on and clinch it up real quick. IMO in the second video you tightened it way to quickly for him. Didnt give him a chance to get his brain back. Good luck with him though, seems like your doing a good job on figuring him out and wanting to do whats best for him.
 
#22 ·
Still trying to get video to show differences in his trick cues and his freak outs. I guess its just something hard to explain with text.



Nothing. He never does this when I'm riding bareback. He only does this immediately after putting the saddle on and putting up the cinch.
 
#24 ·
My Goodness, what a mystery that is going on with Jake!! I accept that I can be wrong, but I still do think it is a bio-mechanic reaction to being cinched up either gradually or in increments. Just a suggestion to try or not, next time you cinch him up give him a kick of your leg or knee to his mid-section at about the cinch area. If he is sucking up his lungs when you tighten the cinch that will encourage him to take a breath to exhale. Oxygen deprivation will cause loss of conciousness which might be possible with Jake.
 
#25 ·
Myhorsesonador - I thought that too for a while, until it became inconsistent. I would think that if he was in pain, he would always be in pain. So I would have a bad ride or he would keep acting up if the saddle stayed on. Or he would do it every time I saddle up. =\

Candandy49 - I have recently watched him, and he is actually breathing while I cinch up...so he isn't blacking out from a lack of oxygen. I would do that with my friends mare who is cinchy and acts all wonky when first saddled. Sometimes she tries to lay down but just slap her on the under side of her belly and she stops it quick. But with Jake it might push him into to flipping over.


On another note I got another video that shows a little bit more. I am provoking him into doing it here. I know his mood was good when I saddled and that he wasn't going to have a major freak out. I also show that his bowing, stretching his legs, picking up his legs and backing up are not associated with this problem.

 
#26 ·
ok a couple of question, Have you tried girthing him up with a bareback pad? and or using differnt size, wider or smaller girths?

i've watch the video several time, and noticed he seems fine right after you grith him, but when you walk to his head to strech his left front leg, he puts his ears back. makes me think he's either resentful of having his leg stretched or maybe there is a comfort issue with that leg.

It doesnt nessasserliy have to be pain. at least in my own personal case when i've have a pinched nerve in my shoulder it feels more like a tingling and travels for quite a ways, normally down my arm and into my back.

Given the info (from a massage therapist who did equine and people) that horses are not that differnt in structor than us, you might have his shoulder evualated. have your equine chiropractor or I'd really recommend an equine masage therapsit look at him,

What I also noticed was his hind legs. he seems to want one of them "resting" the majority of the time, so when you pick up his front leg, he essecianly is only standing on 2 legs. which would of course throw him off balance. I'd have the Therapist or chiropractor or even vet check out his hips and stiffles.

You said a while back he was 20 years old, is he on joint supplements?

It could also verywell be a way of him saying "hey i dont really want to do this today"(getting out of work)
IMO: there where several times that he "was going down" that he seemed to catch himself and try to stay standing,but again it is very hard to say what is going on inside the horse.

I Hope i've shed some light or given you something differnt to think about. I am curious, if you just walk him off after saddling(w/o streching his legs) what happens?
Keep us posted! Hope you find a fix!
 
#27 ·
Jwells84 - Let see if I can get all the questions, you did have a lot.

Bareback pad - He didn't seem to mind, got a little stiff but didn't make any inclination to wanting to go down.

Girths - I have been trying to borrow a few different kinds of girths. So far they all have been relatively the same width (can't find wider ones) and have tried cotton, mohair, neoprene, and leather. All obtained the same results.

The leg/ear thing - Hmm thats not something I have thought about. He has always very clear on showing his expressions with his ears. When he is thinking he tends to have them back, and when he relaxes he puts them on me. He also tries his best to keep at least one ear on me at all times. I will have to watch it and see if he is continuous with it. When he is in a calmer mood like he is in this video, he will only go down if I lift a leg up. When he is more stressed, even doing things like backing up makes him loose balance and fall over. He RUNS backwards, gets his back legs far too underneath himself, sits and rolls over. During these times I have done nothing with his legs. Plus he was getting grumpy with being messed around with this much. I had several minutes trying to get something on video, lol so a lot of saddleing, unsaddling backing up going forward listing his legs. I was pestering him.

Resting hind leg - He does that, which counts for being off balance. If he has just been cinched, he won't put that leg down (it changes from left to right leg he rests on) and stays unbalanced. While every other time he will balance himself out just fine, and will put weight on that leg. He has had his back and hips checked out and given the clear.

Joint Fluid - Yup, 15ml a day.

Getting out of work - On days like this it could be. But the other times when he completely panics? There's a difference. For all I know his complete freak outs could be a little different than him trying to lay down while being saddled....idk. I've had a few people suggest that it may just be some mental problem as well, a long with a few other things that are his personality.

There are some things to think about. Thank you =) Honestly I don't think there is a way to fix this, just working around it.
 
#28 ·
Have you run a mineral panel on him?

Originally I thought you might be referring to something sometimes called "cold backed", which seems to be a disputed issue with some people believing it to be a physical reaction to the saddle, and some believing it to be behavioral.

Watching your videos , I've changed my mind a little, partly because i have the understanding that this is a new behavior for him, but wondering if it might be mineral related, specifically selenium. I have seen so many presentations of deficiency,from rehabbing horses, so I've stopped being surprised when it pops up as an issue for odd behaviors... it almost always seems to be the last thing people think of.

I know with our senior, as he aged, we had to increase his mineral supplement because he was no longer absorbing it the same way as he had when he was younger.

Selenium deficency is known to cause : lethargy, hypersensitivity to touch or pressure, stiffness, achyness, mood changes (among other things)

There is also a major artery? (or vein, I can never remember) which runs through the girth area. In some horses, it can cause a fainting effect if the girth is too tight, or two narrow.

I have a young mare with this issue, but she is much better in a fluffy girth (or WIDE string cinch if we're going western). She actually does something similar to your gelding, but, not nearly as gradual. (which might be that she is pretty green, and your boy has been well trained)

Do those are my thoughts, for what they are worth.
 
#29 ·
sorry for all the questions,but those where the things that poped up in my head as i watched the video. I do agree with you that his Panic is not to do with his wanting getting out of work.

Since he is an older horse, this issue could be a number of things, from something that happened in past ( many years ago) to a slight ailement that only gives him trouble now an then.Im glad that he has an owner like you who wants to try to help him and not just ship him off to a sale barn.

Something I'd look for is when you ride him, is he unusually rough?
Not want to canter on his Left lead?
I say left becuase that seemed to be the leg he had the worst problem with in the video.

The fact that he didnt mind the bareback pad,but did get a little stiff, makes me think there is something not lining up right somewhere( his shoulder,whithers,who knows) but if it is nerves or nerve damage even it will not show up on xray ultrasound. and of corse it probly isnt fixable. unless it is just pinched and you can "unpinch it"

Glad to hear his back and hips checked out ok! thats one less piece to the puzzle!
 
#32 ·
IDK Much about his past other than the people we got him from were terrified of him. Then she said that the person she got him from just put around on him, tried barrels and used the biggest correction bit possible, then the people before that used him as a galloping trail horse only. That is only within the 4 years before we got him, so he floated around a lot.

When I got him he was cowy, and had some traits to suggest he may have been used for some roping, but I have no proof. Why do you ask?
 
#31 ·
The last unicorn - I haven't ran a mineral panel, my vet never suggested it. I know he is getting a whole work-up done within the next week (teeth, vax, and overall checkup) I'll see what she thinks when she comes out. I've also thought about that artery. But he'll act like this ^^ before I even make the cinch tight. Sometimes I'll just put it up and he acts odd. I'll again look into seeing if anyone has a bigger or softer girth.

Jwells84 - I don't mind the questions. So no worries. He was 13-14 when we got him (we are guessing cause we don't really know his age thats another thing my vet will be looking at) and he has almost always had some form of this saddling issue. (It started with bolting until he panicked while in cross ties and flipped over, then when ever he had a bad attack he would fall.) So it could just be a bad experience.

No, he is not unusually rough. He actually moves very very well for a horse his age, has a lot of energy. Never bucks, does rear but that is frustration stimulated and is never random, canters easily on both leads. Feel free to look at my videos on youtube if you want to watch him move.

YouTube - Horsesdontlie's Channel

Hmm interesting. I will have to have my vet look into it.
 
#33 ·
Just a theory but I have nothing to substantiate it as yet. Do you have any decent quality photos? Observation wise is there are changes or unusual lines/patterns running across the scapula or loin area. Also how does his mane sit? Has it ever changed?

Though theres possibly a physical cause I suspect it's mostly psychologically anchored now. I would suspect that the combination of things he has been exposed to and conditioned to have effectively created a cross wiring from a number of things you have said. Possibly exacerbated by a mineral deficiency which could of course help explain why it comes and goes. Like humans with a 'nervous twitch' once learned it is always there, however stress and shortages for example of iron will cause it to reappear. (it wouldn't be iron in the horse, more likely magnesium)

Has he ever done this when he is totally free and you saddle him, so for example not even ground tied?
 
#34 ·
What kind of photos are you looking for? I have tons. =)

I haven't noticed any changes in him over the years. But he has always had this problem as far as I remember. His mane has remained the same. I am not sure what you mean by lines in along his scapula and loin? I mean the only thing that is 'off' about him is he develops his muscles differently in his haunches and he carries his tail slightly to the side, which I thought may have been a back problem but chiro and vets never found any problems to cause it. (The end of Jake's tail looks like it may have been broken once and a vet said he may have developed a habit of carrying it to one side)



Notice that the muscle next to the top of his tail. On the right the muscle is larger and more developed and the one on the left. Then also notice on his left haunch the definition of right above where the leg meets the haunch it is more defined than the right.

 
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