Horse problems after a year in training. - Page 5 - The Horse Forum
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post #41 of 58 Old 03-26-2013, 08:54 AM
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The point of lungeing is not to lessen energy but to develop reactions, and the horse will not draw anything from being lungeing (him like mad) after he might negatively react to what you are asking. The fact that he over reacts to a bat/whip shows holes in the education of the horse imho. And there is reinforcement of an aid, not 'spanking'.

Horses are rarely stubborn, they are mixed up by what is being asked. The question is why the horse goes into a rail in the first place. And how tactful the rider is in PLANNING the use of aids/figures, and if they know how to plan the exit into the next movement as well.

The solutions to all these things are rider based, you have to ask the horse in such a way that it can say 'yes'. That might mean going back further in training to more simple actions, or having better timing, or having your teacher show you. It is NOT about dominance but CLEAR leadership.
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post #42 of 58 Old 03-26-2013, 09:04 AM
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Also, I have to add, as I forgot to in my last post, you said that he would pin your leg against the rail. That is a big big sign, either he's really quite smart and is trying to hurt you OR (and I've seen this) the spur has been over used and he is bracing and moving into it, that is an issue. I'd like to know what kind of spur your using and how you use it. If someone pokes a spur enough into a horses side he will become dead sided/heavy sided and will learn to brace his barrel against the spur and actually move into it. Especially if he sees it coming, 'oh darn here comes that spur again, I'm going to hold my breath and brace my side and move towards it before it stabs me again!'
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post #43 of 58 Old 03-26-2013, 09:18 AM
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I will NEVER, NEVER suggest a rider backs a horse up to get it to go forward. I have had several horses sent to me over the years that had either intentionally rolled up-side-down on a rider or caught a hind foot on a bump in the ground and their backward momentum caused them to 'sit down' and then fall on their rider. They either backed up to keep from going forward or the rider tried to back them up when they did not want to go forward thinking they could back them to where they wanted them to go or they wanted them to get 'sick' of backing up. This can be really dangerous.

This horse is NOT confused.

This horse has just figured out what he can do with this particular rider. Otherwise, he would act the same way with other riders.

Besides 'asking the wrong question' or 'asking the wrong way', there are also horses that have learned that they can resist or refuse JUST BECAUSE THEY KNOW THEY CAN. After several refusals, some will 'fight a rider tooth and nail' to keep being able to do the spoiled behavior they have come to 'enjoy'. This is why we call them 'spoiled'. Just like the child that has found it can get its way by throwing a tantrum, some horses learn to throw a tantrum of their own to get their way. These spoiled horses made my living for me for several years. There was never an end to the line-up of them waiting to be 're-trained'. Like I said before, most would go right back to 'bluffing out' their owner if I did not get to re-train their owner after I got the horse straightened out.

The only thing I don't know about this situation is why the horse's trainer does not teach the owner how to get this horse to respect her riding. She needs more teaching than the horse at this point or she needs an old well-trained horse that will take care of her instead of take advantage of her.
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post #44 of 58 Old 03-26-2013, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by equitate View Post
Franke...you have to read what I said...when it is already backing up (as a resistance) continue the backing. But ASK WHY it chose to back out of the connection/rear/balk in the firstplace.

The reason most horses balk in the first place is that they are either in physcial pain, or the feel trapped by the aids.

From where the OP says horse is starting to put on the brakes, it is rather more likely it is the connection/requests. Sure there are times to use the whip (PROGRESSIVELY touch/vibrate/whack) but it must be timed. Horses are rarely 'naughty', they do what they can within the limits we set for them (for good or for bad)...even though we may not recognized what we are doing causes blockages. And once they learn a behavior we must change clearly. Sometimes a whack, but with a very calculated PLACEMENT and TIMING.
We will have to agree to disagree-there are cases where to continue the backing is not the answer. Period.

Oh-and thank you Cherie-as usual, well said.

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post #45 of 58 Old 03-26-2013, 12:26 PM Thread Starter
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Cherie: thank you for agreeing backing is not the answer! At this point his favorite spot to back to is a corner by the gate- I never ever get off him by the gate, EVER! But people stand at the gate and watch so I assume that's why he pucks that spot, but sometimes he will back his rump against any old wall. With my training- I don't think I am amazing, but I have been riding over 15 years ish and I have had numerous trainers(I'm 24). I like I said am not amazing, but I'm not green with horses either. I want to go farther in my abilities then an already broke trail horse. My trainer knew that. Im not backing down from the challenge, but simply seeking advice and tips. My trainer is very well known I would say his name but feel uncomfortable saying it online- his brother everyone knows because he does clinics and shows all over. Anyhow he is expensive! Even for fifteen minutes of his time it's $50. So I only use him when I can take a full lesson longer then 30 mins. After reading everything I do believe I have spoiled my horse and I'm going to fight myself tooth and nail to buck to the issues I have created. Thank you all again!
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post #46 of 58 Old 03-26-2013, 07:00 PM
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He stands at the gate because that is where he gets to exit from doing what you want and gets to do what he wants.

Last edited by boots; 03-26-2013 at 07:02 PM.
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post #47 of 58 Old 03-26-2013, 07:02 PM
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Horses are not that clever, they do not plan not to work.
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post #48 of 58 Old 03-26-2013, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by equitate View Post
Horses are not that clever, they do not plan not to work.
Yet somehow, making "the right thing easy (with rewarding, for example, with rest) and the wrong thing hard' (for example with lots of work), does work! Hmmm.

I think you do not give them enough credit.

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post #49 of 58 Old 03-26-2013, 07:17 PM
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I give them a LOT of credit for being equine....I believe with traditional training we make the right thing easy by setting them up (physically/mentally/progressively) to say yes. But making the wrong thing difficult imho does not serve that end per se. They simply are NOT calculating, they are choosing the path of least resistance (that we set up). And if we muddle the balance, the reactions, then they will seem to choose something contrary...but the reactions have been because of something we did not notice we were creating (and this comes from years of training 30 horses a year, and reschooling countless horses).
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post #50 of 58 Old 03-26-2013, 08:33 PM
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Yes, we give them too little credit for being smart, having their own wishes and desires, and being individuals with emotions.

We give them far too much credit in thinking they will pick up immediately some complex thing that we want them to do such as lean back and do a haunch turn.

Horses do want to go down the path of least resistance. We confuse them to the point where they act out because they don't understand what we are asking and would like us to just leave them alone. Yet if we can get them to understand by removing the barriers to their understanding and quickly rewarding the correct behavior, they are more than willing to do what we ask.
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