The Horse Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.

Horse problems after a year in training.

6K views 57 replies 22 participants last post by  Saddlebag 
#1 ·
Hey all, so my boy Trigger is the first horse I have had a hand in training. He was ZERO broke last spring- had no clue what a bit was, like nothing! He was a pasture ornament for the first five years of his life. Anyhow, he was given to my instructor who knew I was interested in buying a new horse(this would not be my first horse, it's the first horse I've trained). This wild boy came to the barn hot headed and full of spirit. I loved him from the start. His training for the first 3 months was so intense! I had never been nearly tossed so many times in my life. Fast forward almost a year, he walks, trots, lopes on command. Backs up without hardly any pressure. Neck reins beautifully and I can ground time him forever anywhere anytime. This is only a bit of hoambush we have worked him. He has come HUGE leaps and bounds! Now the first real issue we found once undersaddle is that this boy loves to back up, of course, refuses to move FORWARD. We did some pony work to break him of that. And bang hasn't been an issue in 8 months, now in the past three weeks all he wants to do is back up! Will NOT go forward at all. When I nudge him, steer him, anything we go back to a huge problem, kicking, small rearing and crow kicking. He pins his ears, and just becomes so unpleasant! Now I want to point out, he only does this if I've ridden him more then twice in a week and most famously if I'm working in the arena without any other horses- I ride once a week in an advanced group class. Im considering having the vet come and check his teeth, but aside from that I feel like I'm back to the basics, we moved him back into a snaffle to try and help, and it did for a while, but now he just fights the bit. I'm running out of ideas. I do not want to give in to his bad behavior, but I want to be able to ride this guy without a trainer or million horses in the arena. Sorry about the book. Ok so now for questions: what would you do? Have you seen horses fall back in their training? Any suggestions are ideal. I will try and post a video of me riding him on Wednesday since I know people will be at the barn that can record for me. At that point I greatly appreciate any tips or tricks you have found helpful. Thank you again for all of your guys help! I've totally come to love this forum.
Posted via Mobile Device
 
See less See more
#2 ·
I would also like to see some answers.
My boy Brisco is 22 - and has PLENTY of training. But all of a sudden he has no idea what a saddle is or how to circle in one direction.
This just started today, but I have no idea what happened - is it possible it's horse amnesia? lol, I have no idea.
 
#4 ·
He is very herd bound! Hates being separated from other horses, and is always getting bit or kicked because he just likes to be close to them out in the pasture. But, during group lessons he does everything I ask without nearly a second thought. He picks up his lope or walks forward for me with simple cluck and thigh pressure- since i wear spurs and try to only use them in the absolute right situation.
Posted via Mobile Device
 
#5 ·
Ladies, you may not like my comments, but I can think of no other way to say this:

mollymay -- I do believe the horse you are working with and riding is quite spoiled. I recommend you get input from someone who successfully gets a horse rideable within 6 weeks.

amberly -- depending on how long you have owned and been the sole rider of this horse, he may either have a health problem or "have your number" and be figuring out what he can get away with. Please get your horse checked out and if he is found to be healthy, please make him do what you want. Find out if your cues are clear, then ask first and tell next.
 
#7 ·
Boots: I try not to spoil him, not to say when I ride him I have become less firm perhaps in how I ask for things. Last summer he totally had my number and knew exactly what to do to upset me. The thing is where I board, my trainer owns the place, but one he has never ridden trigger ever- I've always been the one in the saddle, but despite that Trigger always behaves like an almost perfect angel when he is around. Probably because he feeds him. These issues only arise when I'm seriously in the arena alone! Like trainer not around and nobody else there. I thought maybe I was just tense or something and he could tell, but today when I got on I was completely calm and just enjoying my ride until he started being the old him. Tinyliny: I have considered the saddle, but I only just bought this one last week and he has been doing this for about three weeks. I know this saddle is a tad big on him so I have been suggested to go buy a thicker blanket/pad to cushion him better until I buy a nice one in the near future- this was more a simple hand over I got for less then nothing.
Posted via Mobile Device
 
#9 ·
I wonder if maybe he is just bored and testing his boundaries. If the saddle fits and you rule out pain this could be the cause. He could just be getting tired of being in the arena all the time. When his buddies are there it is ok because he has something else to focus on and keep him entertained but when he is alone he gets bored. Try switching it up and adding some new things to his routine. Maybe try riding out of the arena (if that is an option for you) introduce ground poles, different exercises to make things interesting for him again. I can always tell when my horses are getting bored because they begin to test things and try to pull stuff. Get his head working and his mind off of thinking of ways to act up.
 
#10 ·
Lynnf: maybe I will add poles! I usually do cones, but he doesnt like them. If I had barrels I would use those as some obsticals. I used ground poles last summer and before Christmas but totally forgot about them. Thanks I will set some out next time! As for testing me, I think that's most of it. He gets annoyed so why not try and push my buttons!
Posted via Mobile Device
 
#11 ·
Mollymay -- Your horse is spoiled! I am afraid you have no idea of how or why a horse behaves like they do. You need to study 'Horse Psychology 101'.

He does not behave when the trainer is around because your trainer feeds him. Ain't ever happened.

He is not bored!

He doesn't try to 'upset' you!

He is simply spoiled and disrespectful under saddle. He has found that he can only do what he wants to do when he wants to do it. You have never made him suffer serious consequences for NOT doing what you ask him to do. This is totally a lack of respect.

The very first time he 'stalled out' and refused to go forward, you should have spanked his butt good and hard and it would have all been over with before it ever got going. Instead, you looked for reasons why and tried to humor him and as a result, he figured put that he did not have to take you seriously.

Horses are 'creatures of habit'. This means that they do things just because they have done them before. They may have had a 'reason' they did something the first time, but they will continue doing the behavior after that just because they did it before. The one thing that is consistent with them all if that once they have done something disobedient, they will continue to do it until someone gives them a good reason not to do it.

People need to understand that horses become spoiled because they can. It is not a 'personal' thing to them. They do not behave correctly because they 'like' a rider or handler and they do not misbehave because they want to upset someone or do not like them. When you 'open' a door to them and 'close' all others, they go through the open door. You did not close the door behind him when it should have been closed and he has found that he can 'back out of doing what you want'. This is not uncommon and is always progressive. It leads to rearing, spinning around and doing 180s, running backwards and falling up-side-down when a hind foot gets caught on something and eventually can lead to rearing and flipping and refusing to go forward at all -- even with other horses around.

A confident rider will be able to get on him and he will either not even stall out or a quick spanking or spur will tell him that he better get his butt in gear and go forward. This is ultimately going to have to be something that you have to handle.

When I used to get horses in like this for re-training, I got them straightened out, rode them out in the pastures and on the trails by themselves and then, had the owners come and ride them out under my direction. I told them that their horse would only 'stay straight' as long as they were able to put enough pressure on it to make it mind. Otherwise, they needed to sell it and start over.

The best trainer in the world can teach a horse to do anything that horse and that trainer is capable of doing; BUT I have not met the trainer that can take anything out of a horse's head. This is why so many spoiled horses go back to the bad behavior when they get home. A trainer has to spend more time training the owner / rider than the horse. The horses 'fix' a lot more quickly.

One thing I would definitely do is get this horse out of the arena and get it over being 'barn sour', 'arena sour' and 'herd bound'.
 
#12 ·
A horse that buddies up too close to other horses in the field and has issues in an arena alone but does great with others is probably a very insecure horse. With his amount of experiences in life, it may seem very frightening to work in an arena alone. This can be especially true if many people ride in the arena and things get moved around or new items show up in the corners so it looks different to him all the time.

When an insecure horse is with buddies, he will look to them and see that they are not upset. This will make him feel confident. When he is on his own, he might be frightened about moving toward a corner where a scary object is or the lightning comes under the door wrong. It's like how you might be out at night with a group of friends and not notice anything, but if you go outside after dark alone you will notice every sound and shadow.

What I do with horses like this is try to build their confidence. Before riding I will walk the horse around the arena and show them things to help them relax. This only is necessary when they are green and not used to working alone. Then, when I ride I try to change things very quickly and give them a lot to think about. Instead of going around the perimeter, I do circles small and large, serpentines, and frequent gait changes. If the horse does not want to go toward one side of the arena, I work hard on something and gradually work the horse toward the area they are afraid of. Soon the horse grows confident about working alone.

It takes some time for a horse to figure out that when he is with you he is safe, and then he will begin to look to you for calming reassurance instead of horse buddies. Green horses feel that when someone is riding them, they are all alone.
 
#13 ·
Cheri: I do agree that he is potentially arena sour. In the summer we have so many outdoor arenas and a few trails to ride. It's a bummer here because it's still a mud pit everywhere, but I'm going to try walking him in the least muddy of the arenas hopefully this week. I'm trying to show him I'm the boss and use the spurs I wear, but he stomps and tosses his head and like I said does little rear/hop things. I'm not giving up though. He did this last summer and I overcame this issue and I will again. Gottatrot: I do know he acts up when I put out cones at the very beginning like as soon as I get on him. If I don't put out cones at all he does better, so I don't know if it's because it's something small on the ground or if he just sees prime opportunity to act up because I'm asking him to work hard.
Posted via Mobile Device
 
#14 ·
he's intimidating you by throwing temper tantrums, like a spoiled kid.

but he stomps and tosses his head and like I said does little rear/hop things.
honestly, take the spurs off, put him in a snaffle, carry a crop and get his butt working. when he "does little rear/hop things", smack him good with the crop. be prepared for a jump forward.

I really beleive buddy sour horses are looking for leadership and you need to set firm rules and boundaries(and enforce them!) for your horse to veiw you as leader. I have owned and worked with dozens of horses, and after the first two weeks I have never seen any buddy sour/herd bound behavior.
 
#15 ·
Ok, so I had the same situation, my horse was super responsive in the arena when with other horses. Once we were alone she started to pin her ears, not wanting to go forward, it happened once and thats it! You have to act fast. What I did is, I attached a long lead rope to the horse, got on, started riding and as soon as there was any sign of the horse refusing or pinning the ears I jumped off and started lunging her and let her work, show her that any of that behaviour is NOT ok, again it is about timing, you have to act really fast and you need to have lots of time on your hands to deal with that issue. Remember to stop at a good note and dont push to hard but stay firm and let the horse work for bad behaviour! Thats just what worked for me in that situation. Good luck!
 
#16 ·
(IF the vet finds no pain, and likely they will not...) What I often see is a horse which is ridden too low/too closed/onto the forehand, and finally they learn not to go. Rider pinches with leg, releases contact and the horse learns well and truly to say no. This (lack of going forward to the leg) is something that was rarely seen until the time of precipitous (longitudinal) flexion.

So, first question: Does the horse 'go' when on a lunge? Is it only when mounted? HOW are you asking (very specifically).

How to cure it? Go back to lunge, touch where legs would be (behind girth). When mounted, keep the horse higher (much higher) then ask the horse to go (NO pushing/pinching), and perhaps turn the horse. Why they learn to stop is that there is no contact, and pinching which contracts the belly. Likely it will take a rider experienced in retraining horses, and with a clear methodology. The other thing, perhaps you can carry a bat (noise), tap the horse on the shoulder/get up in two point/and canter on (w/o pinching/holding with the legs).

Horses really do not 'test' riders nor do they get bored IF the rider is creating reactions properly through their actions. Neither do they plan to irritate/upset the rider (that is the rider's take on an issue). Horses merely take the path of least resistance given what the rider's requests created. The problem is that the rider many not know what choices they are presenting, and the strength they are giving to the horse because of their own actions. It has nothing to do with firmness per se, but rather with CLARITY (of aids/timing/progressive training).
 
#17 ·
Do you do any lunge work with him? While the horse I worked with wasn't as adamant about refusing to go forward (no bucking, rearing, etc), we broke a horse of her habit of backing up out of control by having her rider ride forward while on the lunge line. We were very clear and consistent in our cues, and after two rides on the lunge, she understands that there is a certain cue for backing, and a rider on her back isn't it ;)

Hope the vet can give you some answers. While he may just be protesting loudly because he doesn't like being alone or in the arena, it is always a great idea to check for sore back, sore mouth, etc.
 
#18 ·
This horse has done a better job of training you than you have done training him. Any time a horse acts up and you back off and take pressure off of him, you are training him to act up. It is as sure as if that was what you set out to do.

You DO NOT have to coddle horses and baby them around things because they are insecure. This only shows them that YOU are insecure and unsure of yourself. They need a strong confident rider/handler that can show them YOU are not insecure and YOU can be counted on as their herd leader. When you ride this way, a green colt with a half dozen rides will go anywhere you point his head.

Read the sticky I wrote that is at the top of this page on the Forum on how we train a confident trail horse. All of these same things apply to any horse -- not just trail horses. Accepting anything less than full compliance with anything you ask, just produces a frightful horse that is always looking for excuses to not do anything you want.

If you ask a horse to go forward and if they don't immediately comply, put hard pressure on them, move out faster and get them too busy to hesitate. Be in charge -- every step of the way.

Remember --- "The worst performance you accept is the very best performance that you have any right to expect."

Cherie
 
#19 ·
We can't ask him what is wrong so it requires detective work. Try to figure out what is the common denominator each time he misbehaves...the same weather (windy and loud), the same saddle, the same time of day (close to feeding time), the same issue with arena setup with scary objects, etc.

This is not spoiling a horse. This is understanding that this horse is an individual, unique from every other horse. I believe it is much better to understand a horse's motivations rather than just pushing them through everything. Pushing them will get you through today. But if you do this a few times and a horse has legitimate reasons for his behavior (pain, fright, confusion over what you are asking) then he will start to believe that you will not listen to him.

From what I have experienced this creates horses that either begin to speak louder in hopes of being heard by making their behavior more drastic (rearing, bucking, etc.), or else become dull, or else begin to quickly throw out behaviors in hopes that this is what you are looking for so they avoid punishment. I've been on horses that have been trained that if you say "jump" they say "how high." When you ask gently to "stop" they will slam on the brakes. When you lightly ask them to turn they will throw themselves in that direction, even if it means hitting another horse. Loud people create loud horses.

I believe in this quote: "If your horse doesn't do what you say, he either doesn't understand the question or else you are asking the wrong question." Except I believe there is one more component to this which is the horse saying "I can't because ____." So we have to listen to horses too and not just order them around.

Say a horse refuses to go forward through a narrow space. You can either sit on the horse and spin and rear and back while he refuses, or else you can ask him three times and if he can't figure it out, get off and lead him through. For every horse I have tried this on, the horse did not think he "won," but instead realized he could go through that space and was more than willing to be ridden through the next time. It's thinking of a different way to pose the question to the horse.
 
#20 ·
I should clarify, as well - this horse was trained on the lunge before being ridden, so to go back on a lunge line put her in a familiar situation. When the rider cued forward, before she had a chance to back up, the person with the lunge also cued her forward, that way she was getting lots of reinforcement that what we meant was "forward"!
 
#22 ·
Wow thanks everyone for so many replies! Ok so as for lunging- he lunges like a dream! One click walks, couple clicks trots, kiss he lopes, and a simple woe and he stops on a dime- some people say I should train him for skidding stops because he stops so well, but that's not this topic. Anyways, he lunges perfectly. Yesterday here is how my ride went by detail: got him brushed and saddled, lunged him both directions- walk, trot, lope about five minutes both directions(not free lunging but on a line), next I do ground work for about 5-10 mins just to focus him on me more. Then I get in the saddle(yesterday I did put out 3 cones right away that we could weave through). Once unbend saddle he did great! We walked a few laps, trotted a few and then did a serpentine through the cones. We went back to walking/trotting around the arena, stopping, backing up. Then I started circling the cones to get his neck moving, after two times of thus he was being a little annoyed, but I pushed through. Then we started to lope in a large circle- did fine for a bit. Then after the lope we walked started doing cone work and that's where he began acting "spoiled" as some say. He started backing up, kicking his left rear leg out, doing a few head tosses. I tried to use spurs on him( I wear them all the time), he just crow kicked in response with some heavy tail flicks. After a bit of fighting, I got off lunged him at a lope both directions, got on and he kept doing it. At this point he would back into a complete corner! Got off again and lunged him in a tight circle making him focus on me. Get on, backs into a corner. At this point I'm frustrated so a fellow friend I ride with came into the arena and forced trig out of the corner and walked next to us. He was so heavy in his feet, dragging his front hooves, but he walked as long as she would. After a lap of pushing him with her on the ground, we called it quits- I know I should have kept on and continued to push him, I just had to leave the barn and be home because I had already spent to long there and had to meet family. So continued, I see my mistake in "giving in" but at the same time I can only spur him so much without riding a bucking bronc and climbing of to lunge him is doing NOTHING! So there is kinda more detail on my ride. Thanks everyone again!!
Posted via Mobile Device
 
#33 ·
and climbing of to lunge him is doing NOTHING!
Posted via Mobile Device
Well "climbing" of to lunge him will of course not do anything! JUMPING of like you saw a monster and making him work (not what he usually does on the lunge - w/t/l) I mean really work and that as fast as you can! Mean your business and stop letting him get away with it! This might turn in a very dangerous situation very soon! :?
 
#24 ·
I agree with Cherie that you have allowed this horse to become spoiled. It can happen when a horse displays a behavior that we feel we may not be able to ride out. We can bring in another more experienced rider to ride through it, but that doesn't solve the problem for us.

Equitate is right too. When a horse acts up, the less experienced rider will squeeze their legs and shut the horse down on forward movement.

Prepare for your ride with a halter and long lead under the bridle. Take off the spurs and get a crop, cue the horse forward. If the horse doesnt move with a light squeeze, then cluck. if the horse doesnt move then spank with the crop HARD behind your leg.

If the horse doesn't move, jump off with the lead and make it lunge. Go after the horse with energy, like if it doesn't do exactly what you want, you will eat it for lunch.

Once it moves well, making plenty of changes in direction and giving you full attention, stop, praise, mount up and start the cue progression again: squeeze, cluck, spank, lunge of death. Repeat as needed.

It only took 4 "lunge of death" treatments for my friend's gelding to be nice and forward. Try to always use the progression of cues to keep your horse light and responsive. Really, as Cherie and others have said, this comes from us as riders not following through when a horse first refuses.
Posted via Mobile Device
 
#25 ·
First, as saddle bags said, spurs are for fine tuning, not retraining a basic issue.

If pain is ruled out( this doesn't sound like a pain issue to me, but i can't see it in person) then you need to look at your self. You have been given some good advice, and I really think what is happening is that he is not being kept interesting in his work in the arena(not enough new exercises, etc), and the biggest issue is you are backing down when he throws tantrums. He is saying essentially "I'm bored, and you arnt the boss of me! I quit" and you are not effectively addressing the problem. Try this. Go out when you have lots of time. Have a plan of what excercises you want to do, and do them decisively. If he tries the stop and back thing, make it your idea. Ask him to back up until he wants to stop, then ask him to stop(don't alow him to stop on his own, the cue must come from you). Then wait. When he has had a good long while to think about things, he likely will want to get going. When you feel like it, ask for him to walk on.

I would focus on getting good willing forward movement.
Posted via Mobile Device
 
#26 ·
Oh, I see I was posting as you were updating us! So yes, just lunging does not work. It must be, as I call it, the "lunge if death." You need to make him work hard and worry that you are going to kill him. Seriously!

How long are you working him? Is he in good enough condition to perform what you are asking of him? Sounds like he is getting tired and shutting down. You may try shorter sessions of work and try to end on a positive.

But you definitely have to turn this around. No refusal will go unanswered!
Posted via Mobile Device
 
#27 ·
So WHAT were YOU doing when the horse begins to refuse you? What is 'get the neck moving'? (Hopefully not truncating the neck by pulling r/l.) Sounds rather like an effect of the bit on the bars of the mouth. Not spoiled but INFORMATIONAL about your effect on the mouth (ever try going all the way back to a hackamore?) The ultimate in pain: spin the horse around in a circle (esp with a dropped inside hand).

Dragging the front feet? See a vet, that much lack of lifting and placing the forelegs seems problematic in the shoulders (or an effect of spinning the horse). And it has nothing to do with 'giving in to the horse', nor having the horse 'give in' to you. A horse has to be asked in such a way it CAN say YES, rather than reject the question. That is the job of the rider. And certainly lack of forward is NEVER fixed by spurring the horse (the belly just tenses more).

Perhaps a vid would help answer what you are doing, why he is responding in such a way.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.
Top