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how to fix this?

14K views 143 replies 21 participants last post by  coffeemama 
#1 ·
Sorry in advance for the novel, lol, but I've been thinking about this a lot the past few days.......

Okay so, I have an OTTB. He is 11 years old, and was on the track as recently as April of 2008. Thats a long time to race for any horse. When I bought him (from an interim owner) she had never been on his back. He basically had no training on how to be a riding horse, so it was going to be completely up to me. I read up a LOT before I finally decided to buy him, and everything that I'd read said that they were relatively easy to re-train, and very willing. So I bought him, and the re-training began. We worked on some minor ground issues, and I basically taught him everything he knows. Voice cues, leg cues, neck reining, backing up, how to respond to a hackamore, etc...basically everything I would need to ride him. Well, its been six months, and until the beginning of December, we were doing FABULOUS. We were walking and trotting and I was almost ready to get him to canter....keep in mind, at a trot, after the first couple of times keeping him on a tight rein, I could let my reins out and he wouldn't speed up. We had worked out his issue of being gate sour, and he was actually getting better about being saddled up (when I first bought him, he was very girthy)

Until the one day I decided to try something new. I know that he does not do well on a single tie. He is very fidgety, likes to get as close to other horses as possible, unties the knots in his lead rope and is generally just a silly horse. Well, on this day I decided to just try him out, since someone else was using the cross ties, and I didn't want to wait twenty minutes to tack up. Big mistake. In all of his fidgeting, in between tightening his girth (I do it twice while he's tied and once before I mount up) his saddle slipped back, and because the girth stayed in place I didn't notice. When I went to mount up, he was fine, and after a few minutes of walking around the ring I asked for a trot. He bucked, and then took off into a very nice and smooth canter. I managed to get him under control, dismounted, fixed his saddle, and got back on. I was nervous, he was nervous, so we just did some more walking and I let him slip into a trot for a few strides before walking him again and getting off. I realize that blow up is my fault.

Then we got a sudden onset of winter rain, so the arena was a complete mud pit and I didn't ride for almost two weeks. I went out and we lunged just to keep him working, which he likes, but I did not saddle up. A few days ago, it was dry enough that I could finally ride in the arena again, so I saddled him up. There was a breeze blowing and a cool front was due in over the weekend, but we've ridden in similar weather just fine. I managed to get one decent trot transition out of him before he blew up, took off into a fast canter/gallop, and over his shoulder and onto the ground I went.

There are a lot of problems in this. One being that everything I read was based on re-training a four or five year old with not very many starts to their racing career. Ice has 95 starts, 42 of those being ones that he either placed or won....so he knows how to run, and that's essentially all he knows how to do. Two, he is naturally a very stubborn/dominant horse. The problem is also not going from a walk to a trot....its coming back down to a walk from trotting. The problem did not start until after he bucked/took off on me.

I have a feeling that I could stick his fits (that's essentially what they are) if I knew that they were coming. The dilemma with that is that expecting something to happen might cause it to happen, versus him just being a brat. At the same time, I don't want to get cocky, try and fix it, and then end up hurting myself. Also, I have no idea how to correct that behavior. One rein stops/circling him only keep him from moving his feet, they don't stop his brain from telling him to do so. So does anyone have any tips? I plan on going out to the barn and talking with our western trainer tomorrow about pricing (she's previously spent three or four years breaking babies, and also has experience with problem horses) for a month or two of training, but I do want some opinions on how I can fix this myself.

Soooo, any suggestions? I ride Western, and would consider myself a pretty decent rider. A few people have already told me I should sell him, which just doesn't seem fair (at any rate, I'd have to get him formally trained to even think of selling him for more than a dollar, and if I do that then I might as well keep him). Oh, and if you've gotten this far thanks in advance!
 
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#2 ·
Personally, I think you DO need to teach him a proper one rein stop, so that when you pick up a rein, he will stop, even if he does turn first. You have to teach this from a walk, then trot, etc... One rein stops are a really useful tool, especially for horses that tend to bolt. My project Appy this summer, was a bolter; if you even 'thought' canter, he would try too, even if I might have only been signaling for a trot; having taught him one rein stops, I was able to shut him down quickly, and we'd try again. I also did alot of circles, figure 8s, and serpentines with him, because simply going around an arena, can be boring for some horses; for him, it really helped him learn how to focus on me, because he never knew what was coming next!

I think you've done well, so far, and unfortunately, you probably may actually have to ride his fits out; maybe longe him first, prior to each ride, so you know what kind of mood he is, and also so you know he is focused on you first. I do this, everytime prior to mounting up, especially with green horses. You set a much better stage for a good ride, if you have mentally prepared the horse for 'work', rather than simply mounting up and hoping for the best.
 
#4 ·
When we first started riding, I did take him out and free lunge him in our round pen. However, since I ride three or four times a week, that quickly turned him round pen sour, and since I have a feeling he's developing arthritis, I don't want to stress his joints out further. He knows how to bend in order to one rein stop, but the problem is getting him to do it....when he took off on me the second time, I was actually trying to one rein stop him, or at the very least turn him into the fence. His response was to jerk his head in the opposite direction, stick his nose in the air, and go. He also does not like "weaving" or anything like that....we have poles for bending set up, and barrels also. He gets very pissy turning in full circles more than once or repetitively going left and right. He's not a fan of ground poles either. Basically, nice flat ground and straight lines are where he's best at.

Prior to this, I was trying to assemble a group at my barn to go out trail riding with, but now that's not an option. There are places on the trail that are long, wide open spaces, and I don't want him to take off on one of those spots, lol. But regardless, he's not the type of horse who likes new things....he's very set in his routine and he knows whats expected of him.

I have however considered going back to the round pen and re-teaching him trot/walk transitions, where he doesn't have to room to get up a good speed. Still, my concern is that he's not a baby anymore. He's got a great head on him for learning, but he's also very set in his ways. I have a feeling that when ever we re-approach the cantering gait, regardless of how well his mind is "on me", he'll have the same problem. So how can I change his thinking?
 
#5 ·
When we first started riding, I did take him out and free lunge him in our round pen. However, since I ride three or four times a week, that quickly turned him round pen sour, and since I have a feeling he's developing arthritis, I don't want to stress his joints out further.
This part of your post brings up two points for me. First why do you think he is "round pen sour"? And two, if you "have a feeling he's developing arthritis" I'd recommend having him looked at by a vet to determine his status.

You also stated "He gets very pissy turning in full circles more than once or repetitively going left and right. He's not a fan of ground poles either. Basically, nice flat ground and straight lines are where he's best at."

Sounds to me like he only wants to do the 'easy' stuff. I'll bet that if things continue he will start to balk at that, too. I always think that if a horse is resistant in one area, he needs to do that thing more- until he does it willingly with a degree of competence. So-- If he gets pissy turning in circles, I'd turn him until he was good at it and all resistance was gone. Depending on the horse it could take anywhere from minutes to weeks to get it done. No one says horse training is easy (except those who don't know better). I admire you wanting to retrain a raced TB. I've trained some myself. Keep up the good work.
 
#7 ·
Double post,woops.....

So I talked to the trainer today and found out that its 25 dollars a session, and the session can last anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour, depending on the horse. The evaluation ride is free, and then from there we discuss what she (the trainer) sees, what my goals are, etc, etc. This makes me excited, I would much rather spend that 500 dollars on training him, if 500 dollars is needed, then on xrays that may be indeterminate.
 
#8 · (Edited)
well that much rather spend else where $500 may be an answer to some pain issues that could be causing him to bolt.. my mare did that and it was a saddle fitting issue. i think you need to check out all your options before saying its a behavior issue. my mare rode fine in that saddle for 3 months till i guess one day she had had enough of being pinched. i didnt know untill i had a fitter come look at it. same with the bit she had. she'd toss her head constantly she was in a dee ring.. put her in a french link loose ring and a fitting saddle and viola ! shes a great moving horse now. so i think you should have his bit, saddle and authritus checked. for racing that long i woulden't doubt it. and honestly theres no such think as round pen sour. he just dosent respect you or he just dosent want to do it . who ever told you re training a OTT tb was easy lied. ive worked with over 20 of them . . one is personally mine. not one of them was close to easy.

i wish you the best of luck though.


--
edit

just looked at your photos of him and saw your riding him western. I think you should have the saddle checked relitivaley soon as most western saddles DON'T fit tb's . You have to find a good fit. its more than possible it could be pinching him.
 
#9 · (Edited)
Sound like that horse has your number. If it where physically possible he would be riding you around the arena. Don't make excuses and I wouldn't bother with the X-rays. Just spend some money on a good trainer that will teach you to ride and teach him to be ridden. Hopefully you have learned an important lesson about the kind of deal you get when you buy a "cheap" horse. I agree with Rod that your problems with him are only going to get worse. Contrary to popular belief most racehorses can change leads and gaits and are not unbroke dinks that can only run in a straight line. The horses are exercised every day by little men in tiny saddles, they can't be too rough or they certainly don't race very long. This horse has enough experience to call your bluff and you have let him get away with it. It doesn't sound to me like there is anything wrong that can't be solved with a some time with a GOOD trainer.
 
#10 ·
The horses are exercised every day by little men in tiny saddles, they can't be too rough or they certainly don't race very long.
dont want to get off topic here but i have to disagree.... OTTT's are pretty high stung 90% of the time and only want to run . re-training them, esp one whos been on the track 9 years is going to be a very hard task as he's never done ANYTHING else but run an oval.... i've got 3 relatives who train and jockey at belmont and my best friend jockeys and we've trained a few who came off the track with bow's , chips after rehab of up to 7 months off.. EVERY horse is diffrent some come off the track sane but thats about 1 in every 100 maybe higher.. it's not easy. oh and a lot of those 'little men' just hang on believe it or not. not the same jockey always trains that rides the race. most of the time yes. not always though. just keep in mind its not a day in the park re training an ottt.
 
#22 · (Edited)
Beware: a novel is ahead!

My husband paced tbs at Remington Park, in OKC for 6 years. Most tbs are mild dolls on the ground. It's only when they're mounted that they know they're going to work. Here is what I KNOW as fact: Racehorses aren't taught anything but forward motion by their trainers. That being said, they WON'T know how to be a riding horse.

dont want to get off topic here but i have to disagree.... OTTT's are pretty high stung 90% of the time and only want to run. Most rh's period know when it's time to race, and it's then that they get most worked up. When my husband was galloping them, sometimes he had to whip the crud out of them to get them to run. But there are very many that are pretty hyper with a rider. Then there are some that have the on/off button. re-training them, esp one whos been on the track 9 years is going to be a very hard task as he's never done ANYTHING else but run an oval.... This is very true. Imagine moving to another culture and having to learn a new language without a translator. It's going to take some time. i've got 3 relatives who train and jockey at belmont and my best friend jockeys and we've trained a few who came off the track with bow's , chips after rehab of up to 7 months off.. EVERY horse is diffrent some come off the track sane but thats about 1 in every 100 maybe higher.. I don't think the number is THAT slim, as the majority of the professional barrel horses are OTTBs. it's not easy. oh and a lot of those 'little men' just hang on believe it or not. It's NOT easy, imagine standing on the sides of the seat of your saddle on a running MACH 1 horse. And a lot of the time that is spent on their backs outside of a race is by people the trainers direct, and not an actual trainer. It is up to the trainer to decide who works the horses and to design their individual workouts depending on what each horse needs/lacks. My husband is not a "Little man." He's short, but has weighed 160lbs since high school. The jockeys and their equipment must be under 115lbs when racing, but to build strength and endurance, heavier riders are put on them to pace and train. not the same jockey always trains that rides the race. most of the time yes. not always though. Usually not the case. There are trainers, and there are jockeys. Trainers are there to "train" the horse. Basically, they oversee the workout process and make sure the horse is fed and supplemented correctly, they handle the business end, the sales, etc. Jockeys are mostly hired out by the trainers. just keep in mind its not a day in the park re training an ottt.
This horse you have may or may not be in that hyper percentage.

Here's what my husband gave me as background, and what he has suggested.

For background, the typical day for a racehorse is this:

Fed first thing AM in a 12x12 stall
He is put on a walker for 30mins
Brought out, rode hard (ONLY ON THE LEFT LEAD)for at least an hour
back on the walker for 30mins
put back in the 12x12 stall
Fed again at night.

This is what your horse has lived and breathed for all those years. My husband said, "If that was MY horse, he would NEVER see a walker, and he would NEVER see a stall. He should be turned out in a run, and if at all possible, in the arena I'm going to be riding him in so he can see that it's not a track, and get comfortable with the boundaries. He's gonna have ground work, every day, and I wouldn't even get on his back until his transitions are keen. I want him to know "Whoa." and "back." because they don't learn this. All they learn is "GO STRAIGHT!" They don't learn stop, they don't learn turn, they don't learn back, they don't learn leg cues. Those are all things that need to be approached as I would on a colt that doesn't know anything. He has only been worked on that left lead, and when the jockey rides around the corners, the horse does not know to turn, the jockey has a constant pressure in that horses mouth and turns his nose in for him."

He put both his fists together, directly in front of him and says, "Look, this is all the jockey has to do to crank his face enough to get around the bend." and he rocked his left fist forward, enough to shorten the left rein. He said he would work on getting the horse light in the face, getting him to flex left and right so well he thinks you're stupid for making him do it. Since he's used to the constant pressure in his mouth, "You may want to put a twisted wire or a small shank bit in his mouth so he learns that it's there as a learning tool, and not to brace against. The best bet would be to ride him in the roundpen, or in a really small pen so he can get used to the boundaries you set, and learn to respond to your cues. Whatever you do, you do NOT want to expose him to anything he's associated with running, if anything, you want to deter him from it. Also, you might work him in a long, narrow pen, like an alley, and try my WTC to the middle, then work on his transitioning down from CTW. He will learn that he has to stop at the end, and it will be narrow enough that he won't be able to turn and bolt."

Whatever you do, try to keep him from his old routine. Work him as slow and patiently as you can. If you get to where he gets away with a mistake, even once, he's going to think he's doing the right thing, and he'll keep doing it. If you hit a bump in the road, don't be discouraged, just do something you know he's good at, and end your session confidently. If you have any other questions, please, feel free to ask!

PS.
Consider longing before a ride to be a warm up for a race, as that's what he's learned all these years. OTTBs should longe after you ride, if you're going to. Most times, the more you run and work a TB, the more endurance he's going to build. So teach him to go slow, and that it's ok to just "ride."
 
#11 ·
the 500 dollars is for xrays for arthritis....they, if anything, would cause him to move slower, not suddenly decide to start running. We've checked his saddle fit before, its fine for him....again, that would cause him to explode moving into the trot, not going back down to a walk. I'm also going to call the chiro out, as I said in the OP, as soon as the holiday is over to see if she can diagnose anything. However, I doubt that's the problem. But to bp, I don't think his sanity is the problem, its his general attitude of a donkey.

Kevins, if he really had my number, I wouldn't be talking about getting back on him, I'd be talking about the quickest way to sell him. If people hadn't suggested I go to the ER, I would have taken him to the round pen and gotten back on him. He knows I'm just as stubborn as he is, and this is actually the first time I have come off of him in all of our fighting. I would like to know what excuses I'm making--I'm only going off of my experience with him. I admitted in the OP that I had planned on getting lessons with him, and I also admitted that I planned on talking to the resident Western trainer about rates, both of which I would think are completely responsible things to do. However, I don't think he needs anything specific, he just needs more real saddle time, and that was my point in the post--helpful suggestions, not criticisms.
 
#14 ·
Kevins, if he really had my number, I wouldn't be talking about getting back on him, I'd be talking about the quickest way to sell him. If people hadn't suggested I go to the ER, I would have taken him to the round pen and gotten back on him. He knows I'm just as stubborn as he is, and this is actually the first time I have come off of him in all of our fighting. I would like to know what excuses I'm making.
First I don't have a dog in this fight so I am not trying to start a fight or run you down. It's not a matter of how stubborn you are, it's a matter of how well you present what you want your horse to do. I think it's fair to say that you are not doing that very well from your horses point of view.

As far as the excuses you are making, you have suggested that it may be arthritis. You have tried saddle fit as an excuse and you mentioned in your last post that you will be having the chiro out ASAP. Those are the excuses that I was refering to. The problem, in my opinion, is a training issue and that is where I would spend my time and money. If you would like to spend your money elsewhere then I wish you luck.
 
#12 ·
It sounds like you've covered a lot of bases, but I think there are still alot of holes in your basic training here. You are giving him an awful lot of excuses that would suit a human for disrepectful behavior. I would probably fall back to groundwork, like someone else mentioned. If someone brought me this horse for training, I definately wouldn't jump on his back till I found out what was making him tick and eventually explode. There are many little things jumping out here, from his behavior in the round pen to how he reacts to being tied up and his inability to adapt. Sure, physical issues could contribute to his intensified defensive behaviors. I don't think its a matter of "teaching him a lesson". Horses tell you exactly whats wrong before you get on their back. You are interpreting everything that he's doing in your language. It says something completely different if you look at it in his.
 
#13 · (Edited)
Just to cover my bases, lol he does cross tie perfectly. He just doesn't single tie very well, as he is very fidgety, and smart enough to let himself loose, lol. I'd imagine that he was never single tied on the track, he was always either held or cross tied.

I totally agree--he's basically telling me that he's never done this (i.e. regular riding with a person sitting on his back) before, and he doesn't like it anymore. I know that he knows how to walk, trot, canter, and gallop and transition to those gaits in a relatively smooth fashion, he knows how to lead, yield his hindquarters, and forequarters, back, turn left and right, etc. etc.....the problem is not the groundwork, as he does these things perfectly when asked...its getting him to re-associate these things with his new life, not his old one on the track. Thats his problem and essentially why he explodes, because that's exactly what he was trained to do, so he thinks its right. Like I said in the OP, I need to change his thinking, not just change his actions.

Ironically, its his actions that are right, but his motivation is wrong. For the last six months, instead of wiping his slate clean, which is what I need to do, I've been trying to build his new skills on top of the old ones....basically like putting an American plug into a European socket. You can jam it in there and it might work, but in this case you're probably just going to get electrocuted.
 
#16 ·
^Well then thats my bad. I do think he may be developing arthritis, but that has noting to do with this incident here--that has to do with how I approach his training as far as excessive lunging/round penning goes, but there's more than one way to skin a cat. As for the chiro, I have one visit left in the package I purchased, so why not use it now and cover all of my bases. I think I said it somewhere up there, but I'm 99% sure he's just being himself and it has nothing to do with pain. I did not mention the saddle fit as an excuse, someone else mentioned it since they saw I ride Western....I think it was barnprincess. I know for a fact that his saddle fits him fine, other wise his exploding would have happened long before now.

My trouble seems to be is that you were quick to rip me apart, but offered no suggestion as to how to fix it. Traditional fixes like one-rein stops are just going to be a band-aid in this case, since he doesn't know that he's doing wrong. I want to know how I can basically re-train him from something he's done his whole life.
 
#17 ·
So what you are asking for is " How to fix a horse in 500 words or less".
 
#18 ·
Yes and no...obviously I know there's no black and white concrete way to re-train a horse, but I figure why not ask here? There are plenty of people more skilled than me who might have some insight on the situation. The trainer I'm going with has experience breaking and starting babies and fixing problem horses, but not with re-training one, or at least not to this degree. So essentially, she can ride out his fits, but we kind of have to just guess at how to get him to think differently.
 
#34 · (Edited)
But see, we have given you ideas, and you draw out long responses as to why those ideas won't work.

My mare was supposedly unrideable, for who knows how long, but I've worked with her for 4 months, and she IS rideable. It didn't take me long to figure out that she needed mainly a consistent and confident handler, more so than actual training, although even though she was supposedly ridden a while back, she still is what I would consider a 'green' horse. I spend more time on the ground with any horse I train, than I do in the saddle, and this has helped my mare emmensely. Ground work should never stop, even when a horse is what I would consider well trained.

I think that while you do need to get the physical 'issues' addressed, you need to step back, find those holes, and help him become a better adjusted horse, even if it means not riding for a while. Any horse should be able to tie on a single pole, so start there; teach him how to ground tie, then start simply looping the lead through a ring on the single tie post. When he gets impatient, then start putting his antzy butt to work. Yes, he may be a TB, and thoroughbreds can be high strung, but that is no excuse for him NOT to learn some patience. He shouldn't have to be cross tied in order for you to work with him, because what if he one day decides he don't want to be tied that way either? You need to start filling in holes, and it will take a while, and tons of patience. Don't just address the riding issues, when there are other impatient horse issues there as well. And when you do get on and ride him, DO everything with him, NOT just things you think he will tolerate; a well trained horse is one who will try for his owner, regardless of whether he 'wants' to or not. Don't just settle for what he'll give you, or you'll never advance with him; he will stay a 'green broke' horse for the rest of his life.
 
#19 · (Edited)
I know for a fact that his saddle fits him fine, other wise his exploding would have happened long before now.
if you read what i said thats not true. . . my hrose rode in an ill fitting saddle for THREE MONTHS without incident. untill she had enough of being pinched and exploded into a bronco. three times she did this untill i realized hey idiot somethings wrong. and sure enough her saddle was sqeezing and pinching her shoulder movment as most ill fitting saddles do. look up on you tube how to make sure. and unless you had a fitter look you cant be 'know for a fact' because i said that too untill i had a professional come.

My trouble seems to be is that you were quick to rip me apart, but offered no suggestion as to how to fix it. Traditional fixes like one-rein stops are just going to be a band-aid in this case, since he doesn't know that he's doing wrong. I want to know how I can basically re-train him from something he's done his whole life.

as ive worked with over 20 OTT tbs i dont suggest them to people who have not the slightest clue in re training them and starting over. most ott tbs need a down time to be a horse. we turned ours out for 2 - 6 months THEN started from ground work up. thats how you do it the right way. if you dont know how to fix it i suggest you get off the board and call a REAL trainer or some one who actually knows what they are doing.
 
#21 ·
as ive worked with over 20 OTT tbs i dont suggest them to people who have not the slightest clue in re training them and starting over. most ott tbs need a down time to be a horse. we turned ours out for 2 - 6 months THEN started from ground work up. thats how you do it the right way. if you dont know how to fix it i suggest you get off the board and call a REAL trainer or some one who actually knows what they are doing.
I have a feeling we may not agree on a whole lot but I do agree with this^^^.

If YOUR trainer doesn't have the experience then find one that does. Knowing the reason behind the behavior isn't always important. Sometimes you just need to show them an easier way and the horse will leave the old behavior behind.
 
#20 ·
Chances are that he is reverting to old behavior because he doesn't understand what you are doing. When a horse reaches a point in confusion, they revert to what they know will work to get the pressure to go away. This is how serious buckers continue their habit and serious bolters continue theirs. I am a firm believer that a truely "caught" horse doesn't need to be wearing a halter and a truely "tied" horse doesn't actually need to be tied to anything. I do halter and tie my horses, but what you are missing is the frame of mind behind the exercises as we see them. Without the mind, everything else will be that more challenging. Its not a matter of riding out his fits, but figuring out what triggers them and how to fix that. At the same time, you would need to reshape his coping mechanism so that he could make his confusion known without putting you in danger. Everyone is telling you to go back to the ground because that is where you establish the leadership and respect that you need to re-train this horse. Holes in foundation training can go unseen for quite some time to the average person before they literally knock you on your butt. Thats what this is, its a hole, to fix what you are seeing, you have to fill the hole.
I personally don't understand how someone can start horses and fix problem horses without knowing how to re-train a horse. I know plenty of people that can start them from scratch, but can't undo something that has already been screwed up. But if someone is claiming to fix problems, I personally would want someone with more than a velcro butt.
 
#24 ·
Just as a random edit, possibly for future reference, whatever.....

I have his race records. They came complete with notes made my the trainers, and most of them said that he started out strong, and then gave up towards the end, which is why he didn't win. I've seen some of his race tapes from his later years, and that seems to be true. He may not have an on/off button, but I don't think that he was the "straining at the bit" type either.

I have been considering going back to round pen riding until I can get him properly transitioning again, but I never considered working in a chute....I always assumed that would get him going. We do have one on the barn property (our arena is made for rodeo events) so I'll definitely have to try that at some point.

I ride him in a hackamore, he absolutely abhors any kind of bit in his mouth, as his mouth is actually kind of small. He does work very well in that, and its taught him to bend pretty efficiently also....however, when he gets running (as I found out a little too late) he still stiffens/ braces his neck.
 
#27 ·
I ride him in a hackamore, he absolutely abhors any kind of bit in his mouth, as his mouth is actually kind of small. He does work very well in that, and its taught him to bend pretty efficiently also....however, when he gets running (as I found out a little too late) he still stiffens/ braces his neck.
Are you refering to a bosal hackamore or a mechanical hackamore? He obviously can wear a snaffle and has for 7 1/2 years of his life so he should deffinately be used to it. You should work on bending more. Learn how to do a one rein stop CORRECTLY and get him breaking at the poll. Use light steady pressure and release as soon as he gives even a tiny bit. Start this standing still and work up to going at a walk. When you can get and hold vertical flexion for a few strides then do it at the trot and so on. You have to get him soft in the face and soft through the body. I would bet that you can't yield his hindquarters. This is a must. Your horse also needs to back with lightness and cadence. You also do this with light steady pressure and a leg cue(squeezing).


1. Yield the hindquarters both directions with ease.

2. Ask for and maintain vertical flexion at all gaits.

3. Back with lightness and cadence.
 
#25 ·
and there's light coming from the back when he drops his head.
that means its pitching in the back and means it DOES NOT fit.

i would do tons and tons of ground work. keep joining up with him , keep him thinking keep working on respect and transitions with your voice. untill you have all that perfect i woulden't ride him . work him in the arena free lunge , or on a lunge let him see where your going to ride him and that it's not a track.
 
#26 · (Edited)
I believe I said this in an earlier post that I really would rather not over-lunge him.... too much stress on his joints that have already been stressed out enough. Plus our round pen is small, I think something like 50 feet. It could be less. Here's a link to the picture....that pole in the center isn't there anymore, but you can see that its not very big.
http://www.doveroaks.com/images/tour/f13.html

At a minimum, I was riding him three times a week...I've let up on that and he's since gotten fat, but I prefer to work in the saddle rather than on the ground with him.

Maybe I should take some pictures of saddle fit then and post it up here. They told me once when it looked a little funny (when I went out and bought the half pad) so I would assume the people at my barn would show the same courtesy again if it was really that wrong. I still don't know how an ill fitting saddle would make him speed up suddenly when I asked him to slow down, however. He's had no problems planting his feet when something was wrong before.

On another note....we've been working for six months. At what point would I stop the ground work? He does transition very well with my voice alone, but its not perfect....its perfect when I can be on his back and use my seat to clue him in.
 
#32 ·
I still don't know how an ill fitting saddle would make him speed up suddenly when I asked him to slow down, however. He's had no problems planting his feet when something was wrong before.

It's not solely that the saddle doesn't fit, it's heavier, bulkier, and resists more freedom of movement, so there's more confusion, and another pressure he's trying to respond to. You know what he associates you pulling back on his face with? That as soon as you drop slack to him, it's time to go. So he will get excited because he is anticipating that you're trying to hold him up so he can have that extra burst of speed. RTBs can work superb on the ground, but are a mess under saddle because of the way they have been jockeyed and handled. Even after a race is over, you can see that the jockeys don't actually get the horses stopped, the horses have to stop on their own, and he has been taught to brace on the pressure on his face and bolt once that pressure is released.

On another note....we've been working for six months. At what point would I stop the ground work? He does transition very well with my voice alone, but its not perfect....its perfect when I can be on his back and use my seat to clue him in.

Keep doing ground work until you have everything accomplished with him that you want to. This will keep his focus on you, and maintain your leadership role. Otherwise, if you get on and get frustrated, he just won.
I'm talking about one of the english hackamores.

Korsteel English Hackamore Weatherbeeta Inc (Equine - Horse Tack Supplies - Bits - Working)

Wearing a bit for racing might as well not be wearing a bit at all....all they do is blow past it. He is much more willing as far as bending, turning, and stopping goes in the hackamore than in the bit. I can hold my reins in one hand and squeeze, and he'll stop. I bought a plain d-ring and ditched it after almost four months of struggling to get him to work in it.

I can say it was smart of you to think to try a hackamore. Only thing is, because he doesn't know how to stop and give his nose at any more than a trot, it probably isn't the best idea for him right now. If he figures out that he can bend at the poll and get his nose down, he can run out of your hands and push with his forehead. He CAN get away, and if he figures it out, no bit or any amount of tack you put on his head is going to work. I would definitely consider switching to a more severe bit, like a twisted wire snaffle, or a rutledge roper bit, or get a hack that also has a bit. (attached a picture at the bottom.)


How I cue is I move my seat/weight forward, and squeeze my reins in my hand ( creates light pressure on his nose ) and tell him to back. The difference between the "stopping" and the "backing" cue are that my hands are lower, in between my belly button and my hips, whereas for a stop, my hands are in front of the pommel/horn. To him, leg pressure means "forward", or "faster".

When you move your weight forward, you are putting pressure on the front end of your saddle, and he's not picking up what you mean when you push down on his shoulders. Rock your weight back, shove your feet forward, and that should be the cue for "Whoa." when you then apply pressure to his face, it only leaves room for him to lift his shoulders. As you're riding, whether you're stopping or backing, or just going, you don't want your hands to come behind the horn. Especially since he doesn't know what you're asking of him, because if he bolts, you will have to scramble to get your hands closer to his mouth to get a better hold on his face to get him pulled up.

On the ground, he bends very nicely (with the hackamore on), but in the saddle he does have some trouble to the left....he'll turn pretty good, but thats with my left leg pressure and right rein on his neck. How can I get him to bend around without food, which is what people suggest to me? Usually he just assumes I'm trying to back him and starts moving.

Where do you learn to use your left leg when you're wanting to go left? I'm curious, because I bought a horse that was trained that way, and it's backward to everything anyone I know has been taught. Try stabilizing your left leg, lightly pulling his left cheek to your boot, pull the right rein over his neck, and bump him with your right heel, if you're wanting the shoulder to move, kick farther forward, the hip, farther backward. If he starts moving backward, do NOT stop him, kick, kick, kick, gradually harder, until he goes forward. As soon as he so much as picks up a foot to go forward, let your body go limp, and let him think about it.

I think I understand what you're saying....moving his hindquarters, no, he does stay perfectly still with his fronts. Moving his forequarters however is where he has trouble....if I remember correctly its on his left side also. On his right, he can cross his legs over and give me an excellent front turn around/side pass, but he only does it sometimes to the left. The cues can be exactly the same (I actually made sure of it when I tried to film him not doing it one day) and he just seems stiff in the left shoulder/neck area. He only does the backing to the left, I think because he can't naturally bend the way he can to the right.

Remember, he's only been worked forward, and on the left lead. That's ALL he's ever been taught. If he's learning the right from you fine, you'll need to correct the work to the left. He's not going to be able to reason that "Oh, she wants me to do the same thing over here!" You'll have to figure out a way to get what you want, and award him when he does it, even if he does it wrong, just so he understands, "Wow... ok, that's all she wanted, I can do this..." Then you can work on refining him. And when you said you put your weight forward when you're trying to back him, the same when you're trying to get him to turn, get OFF that shoulder. It makes it so hard for him to pick it up and move when he has that pressure there that wasn't there when he was just walking around... he doesn't understand the movement yet, let alone your riding style or cues. So what you'll want to do is make sure he learns the movement BEFORE he learns the cue.

When we're bending from the ground, I stand underneath his neck (I actually fit there, lol) with the opposite hand of the way I want to bend on his face. I do a gentle push/pressure, and it usually takes him three times to reach all the way back on the right. On the left side, he stiffens up and jerks his head away a lot more, so we work a lot slower....A lot of times I end up poking him in the place where his shoulder and his neck meet "no, bend here" In the saddle I make sure to use zero leg pressure and bring the rein I want him to bend into around slowly, with complete slack in the other side (I use the thick trail reins). Should I start doing it against a fence so he has nowhere to go (although he'll probably be cheeky and start moving forward)?
When you're standing in front of him, make sure that you're using the reins EXACTLY like you would on his back. Can you find a partner to stand on the ground and help you?

Are you allowed to ride bareback? If he transitions good when he's longeing, have a friend longe him, and you ride. This way he can associate the same cues on the ground with the ones you're giving on his back, without the saddle interfering.

Have you tried ground driving him? Do you have access to 2 longe lines? I would suggest if you can't ground drive him, to yes, try it against the fence, but be sure that you're always bending him INTO the fence, that way if he steps out, he's not going to pinch your leg!
 

Attachments

#28 ·
I'm talking about one of the english hackamores.

Korsteel English Hackamore Weatherbeeta Inc (Equine - Horse Tack Supplies - Bits - Working)

Wearing a bit for racing might as well not be wearing a bit at all....all they do is blow past it. He is much more willing as far as bending, turning, and stopping goes in the hackamore than in the bit. I can hold my reins in one hand and squeeze, and he'll stop. I bought a plain d-ring and ditched it after almost four months of struggling to get him to work in it.

He actually backs better than he walks forward sometimes. I spent something like two weeks straight breaking him of his gate sourness by backing up (he wouldn't turn left or right, so I'd back him up ten steps and ask him to turn again. If he didn't turn then, I'd back him up some more) When he doesn't feel like going forward while free lunging, he'll walk backwards. Thats actually pretty funny to see. How I cue is I move my seat/weight forward, and squeeze my reins in my hand ( creates light pressure on his nose ) and tell him to back. The difference between the "stopping" and the "backing" cue are that my hands are lower, in between my belly button and my hips, whereas for a stop, my hands are in front of the pommel/horn. To him, leg pressure means "forward", or "faster".

On the ground, he bends very nicely (with the hackamore on), but in the saddle he does have some trouble to the left....he'll turn pretty good, but thats with my left leg pressure and right rein on his neck. How can I get him to bend around without food, which is what people suggest to me? Usually he just assumes I'm trying to back him and starts moving.

I guess pictures AND video are in order, although they might have to wait until my tailbone is a little less sore.
 
#29 ·
I know that I am probably treading where I have no business going as I have never tried to re-train an ex-race horse, I have ridden steeplechasers though and that was hard work.

I was reading your post and I have a couple of questions. You say that your horse is excellent with groundwork and that you have achieved everything that needs to be achieved. I am wondering if this is quite true, you see I am coming at this as a person who has been in a very similar situation. You say that your horse is excellent at backing, so good in fact that he does it to avoid other exercises. You can have a horse that does the required things on the ground but that does not neccessarily mean that they are well schooled. I have come to understand that it is not just the movement of an exercise but MORE IMPORTANTLY the cessation of an exercise. It is very hard to explain what I mean. For example if you want your horse to move from a feel, well anyone can give a horse a push and get them moving, the question is does your horse stop at the point that you want it to stop? If you want to circle the hind quarters of your horse do his front feet stay almost still or does your horse walk forward while doing the exercise? If he is walking forward in order to circle his hind quarters he is not doing it correctly - though still doing the excersize - on his terms. You also said that he assumes that you are are trying to back him and starts moving. I know that this is from the saddle but if you had a clear backing signal on the ground that would transfer to under saddle. You want to use as close as possible the same signals on the ground as you do for riding so it translates easily.

I am just wondering if you have achieved everything on the ground that needs to be achieved.
 
#30 ·
I think I understand what you're saying....moving his hindquarters, no, he does stay perfectly still with his fronts. Moving his forequarters however is where he has trouble....if I remember correctly its on his left side also. On his right, he can cross his legs over and give me an excellent front turn around/side pass, but he only does it sometimes to the left. The cues can be exactly the same (I actually made sure of it when I tried to film him not doing it one day) and he just seems stiff in the left shoulder/neck area. He only does the backing to the left, I think because he can't naturally bend the way he can to the right.

When we're bending from the ground, I stand underneath his neck (I actually fit there, lol) with the opposite hand of the way I want to bend on his face. I do a gentle push/pressure, and it usually takes him three times to reach all the way back on the right. On the left side, he stiffens up and jerks his head away a lot more, so we work a lot slower....A lot of times I end up poking him in the place where his shoulder and his neck meet "no, bend here" In the saddle I make sure to use zero leg pressure and bring the rein I want him to bend into around slowly, with complete slack in the other side (I use the thick trail reins). Should I start doing it against a fence so he has nowhere to go (although he'll probably be cheeky and start moving forward)?
 
#31 ·
A good way to get a lateral bend in head and kneck is to stand at the horses withers. Using the bridle, pull back and slightly up on the rein on the same side you are on. The aim is to get your hand resting on the horses withers. It is a gentle excersize that gives a good stretch. If the horse keeps circling go with it, keep the pressure on that rein until he stops moving and there is a release of pressure on the rein you are holding once you get a soft feel let go. This may be a good excersize for his left side which sounds like what is causing all the problems. Also this excersize is a great representation of the one rein halt - from the ground.
 
#33 ·
It's too much to quote, so I'll just answer everything here.....

His saddle is synthetic (looks like leather) with almost no skirt and its an trail endurance saddle, so its made to be lighter....if I remember correctly, it weighs 17 or 18 pounds, not much more than an English saddle weighs. Thats more than a racing saddle weighs, but I've always ridden Western. I wouldn't say that he associates a slack in the reins with "going faster"--its actually the exact opposite. Constant pressure either on his mouth or his face is what drives them forward. I've also trotted him on a loose rein before, although it wasn't very smooth, thats just a TB for you, but he's never offered to move out of a trot on a loose rein. The "whoa" you described is what I do--forgive me, I was just describing the rein position since thats what we were talking about. Leaning my weight forward is only for backing.

Also, let me say that previously he has "taken off" on me, but I know the cause there--his saddle had slipped back and so it was uncomfortable for him to trot, and when I asked him to anyway (I didn't realize it, it was only an inch or two) he blew up by bucking and then taking off. I was able to stop him, again from either a fast canter or a gallop, with the hackamore, and my seat, and my voice. I think if I had stayed on this time, I would have been able to bring him back, but I wasn't expecting him to do that at all, and so I didn't have time to balance myself properly. We have ridden twice in between that incident and this incident, with trotting and walking, and there were no incidences in those rides.

I wouldn't ever want to use a gag bit or a severe bit like that on him--I don't have the experience with harsh bits like that in order for them to be really effective, and I don't think they're really needed to teach him what I want to do. He's learned just fine thus far about stopping and going, and we have the curb chain tight enough to keep it from slipping off of his nose and to keep him of evading the pressure of the left and right shanks, if he were to ever tuck his nose in. As far as his focus goes, its ALWAYS on me, he recognizes that I'm the rider and I know whats going on, otherwise I would have never moved him up from a walk to begin with.

I use my left leg because thats what I've always done, and he turns a lot tighter than if I use my outside leg. With the outside, its more of a "meander over gradually"....using my inside heel, I get the "oh, you want this way!" reaction and an actual turn. He already knows how to neck rein, he learned it in the same day as we started with the hackamore. He already understands the "kick to turn" business if he's stopped (like I want to turn around in a corner) except, like the regular turning, I use my inside leg because he seems to bend around it to turn instead of sidepass the way he does with my outside leg.

From my research, race horses know BOTH leads, and he actually is reluctant to pick up his left lead--he much prefers the right (with the rail/round pen on his left side). He'll pick up a trot on his left lead, I believe, but on a canter its almost impossible to get it. The reason I stand in front of him is because my hand is on the other side--kind of like holding his head to put the bridle on. If I stand on the side of him, he turns to face me.

I have also considered ground driving him, I was actually looking at getting a surcingle and driving reins last night. As for the riding bareback, I could, but I don't think I'd want to. His withers are awful and bony. Since I ride Western and not English, I would think it would be better to just get him accustomed to feeling the cues with the saddle on, rather than being able to feel my every move and then suddenly not at all.
 
#36 ·
I use my left leg because thats what I've always done, and he turns a lot tighter than if I use my outside leg. With the outside, its more of a "meander over gradually"....using my inside heel, I get the "oh, you want this way!" reaction and an actual turn. He already knows how to neck rein, he learned it in the same day as we started with the hackamore. He already understands the "kick to turn" business if he's stopped (like I want to turn around in a corner) except, like the regular turning, I use my inside leg because he seems to bend around it to turn instead of sidepass the way he does with my outside leg.

.
Just because it's what you have always done doesn't mean it's right. Neck reining is not generally learned in one day so I would say he really doesn't know how to neck rein. You really have disregarded all the advice that you have been given and most of it has been pretty good advice. From your posts I feel pretty confident saying you need to send that horse to a trainer then take some riding lessons. Let go of your pride, open your mind and learn something.
 
#35 ·
^^ I've accepted most of the ideas that others have given me-- the only things that I won't do are put a bit in his mouth, or spend unneccessary time going over things that he already knows, like beating the simple processes of backing up and lateral movements into his head. I do know that he needs work on his bending to the left, and bending in general in the saddle, and we are working on it--can't do much more than that. I prefer working with him in the saddle because that's where most of his lessons are going to be learned--he was already broken with ground work, so a brush up is all that he needs.

I seem to either have the problem of not picking the right words in my OP's, or people must just get to the end of posts and not really read the questions, because, as I said to kevinshorses, typical things like doing one rein stops or riding it out to correct him aren't going to work, because he doesn't know that what he's doing is wrong. That's all he's done thus far in his life, so why would it be wrong? I need to change his thought process and the "misbehavior" should go away. A one-rein stop is a useful tool, but only for horses who are taught to stay in one single gait until they are cued otherwise. We're working on that, something else that can best be done in the saddle.

I think you're mistaking fidgety for not being able to single-tie.....he'll single tie, and stand very well single-tied, as long as he's alone and someone is watching him. As soon as another horse shows up, or I go to put the saddle back in the tack room, he's untying himself and off to annoy the neighbor horse. I am also working on teaching him to ground tie, since thats something that if I ever do fall off again, will (hopefully) keep me from getting another hoof print-shaped bruise.

The ground driving is actually an excellent idea--I've looked into getting the equipment before, but have never had the money to do it. My reluctance to stay on the ground stems from the fact that there isn't much else to do with him except work him under saddle--our round pen is small, and although I can do basic teaching in it, real riding can only be done in the arena, which is huge.

Ironically, everyone tells me that Ice is unrideable when I know that he just needs to be brought back to the sane horse world. He also needs someone who knows what they're doing in the saddle--he gets nervous and tense just being around unsure people. I've gotten we'll say four months of solid good riding out of him, and until the cold weather started I never had a problem, and even now he still respects me on the ground in a totally separate way than he does the barn staff whom he sees every day. I know that eventually that relationship will translate up into the saddle, but that takes time, and its certainly not going to be six months.

I "settle" for what he's given me because, although I'm sure he wasn't abused, or at least not in the sense we think of, he's never had a consistant owner before, or even a consistent rider who demands the kind of respect I am...they just work with/around his issues and move on. When he's ready to give more, I'll ask for it.
 
#37 ·
^That was also in my first post....I KNOW that he needs to be worked on, and that is going to happen as soon as I can talk to her, but I want to have as much to do with it as I can. The trainer I have has never worked with an off the track horse before....OTTB's are not "greenies", they are trained very well for one specific thing, so treating him like he's never been asked to back up or step away before is just time-wasting for me and for him. I work on what needs to be worked on, which in this case are his bending, refining his cues, and sacking him out. I can only "fill in the holes" I can see, and those would be the ones I'm working on.

If something works, why switch to something that doesn't? I know that its "inside rein, outside leg" but if he responds to my inside heel, and he doesn't respond to the outside one, its not like the earth will fall down around us. When I lay my rein up on his neck, he starts heading in the direction I want him to, I would consider that "neck reining".

I'm much more open to suggestions when they don't come with lengthy lectures attached. Advice is always nice, but not when your post doesn't even address the original question.
 
#38 ·
Ok, well, I sat and talked to my husband for three hours now, talking about how YOU can help YOUR horse. I'm actually quite offended that you aren't interested in the help I am offering you, let alone to make a comment that you didn't ask for a lengthy lecture. If you didn't want a lecture, maybe you shouldn't have asked the question in the first place. Now, I have wasted three blessed hours with my family to help someone that doesn't really want my help. Man, that makes ME feel GRRRRREAT!

Since you're not capable of getting another trainer that HAS worked with OTTBs, or capable of heeding advice of a trainer of OTTBs, I can safely assume that you're one of those people that makes pasture pets out of horses that don't know what you're asking them, and they're the ones that end up selling cheap, going to auction, and eventually end up being dragged out of horrible living conditions. If the horse has a problem, you correct it. Right then and there. You don't just "Let him do it because he does it better this way." You do it correctly so that the next person who tries to work him, or buys him from you doesn't have to re-teach him all the bad re-teaching you've already done. That poor horse. Find him a different trainer, or find him a different home.
^That was also in my first post....I KNOW that he needs to be worked on, and that is going to happen as soon as I can talk to her, but I want to have as much to do with it as I can. The trainer I have has never worked with an off the track horse before....OTTB's are not "greenies", they are trained very well for one specific thing, so treating him like he's never been asked to back up or step away before is just time-wasting for me and for him. It is NOT a waste of time making sure the basics are covered correctly. I certainly would not hook up a riding horse to a cart and expect him to know what I want just because he already knows SOME KIND of cues... I work on what needs to be worked on, which in this case are his bending, refining his cues, and sacking him out. I can only "fill in the holes" I can see, and those would be the ones I'm working on. If you already "know" what needs to be worked on, why would you ask the question in the first place?

If something works, why switch to something that doesn't? I know that its "inside rein, outside leg" but if he responds to my inside heel, and he doesn't respond to the outside one, its not like the earth will fall down around us. When I lay my rein up on his neck, he starts heading in the direction I want him to, I would consider that "neck reining".

Why switch it? Because it isn't correct, and the next person that comes along may not want him due to the problem. The longer you do it incorrectly, the harder it's going to be to correct. Do everyone involved a favor. Just do it right.

I'm much more open to suggestions when they don't come with lengthy lectures attached. Advice is always nice, but not when your post doesn't even address the original question. Not sure what you mean, here. I addressed the question, "How to fix this?" And I have to brag, I feel like my husband and I did a great job, offered solid advice, and if you don't want it, don't use it, that's YOUR problem.
 
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